Judgment Seat of Christ pt 2

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Lacy Evans, Sep 12, 2004.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    I would like to relaunch this thread. I would also like to limit it to those who DO believe the in Eternal security of the believer and who are pre-mil. (If that is OK with the moderators. It is very cumbersome to debate Eternal Secutity, Chastening/Rewards, and the timing of the Judgment seat of Christ all on one debate thread.)

    1) What is the "Labour" in verse 9 and how does it relate to salvation and/or holiness?
    2) What is it that a Christian might "recieve" for the "bad" things "done in his body"? (ie. Is there negative reward at the JSOC?, And if so to what degree?)
    3) What does the term "Terror of the Lord" mean to the walk of an eternally secure believer?

    Lacy

    PS. I also recommend reading this short book by D M Panton, The Judgment Seat of Christ.

    http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/panton/judgmentseat.htm
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Lacy Evans,

    You mentioned Matt. 18:34 last Saturday, prove it is a temporary punishment for Christians for 1000 years.

    Matt. 18:34 have do nothing with a Christian who will be suffer punishment AFTER death. That verse talks about forgive DURING life.

    Read the context of Matt. 18:21-35 talk about to forgive one another. Peter asked Christ, do we have to forgive a person who sin against us - seven times? Christ told him, forgive them who sin against us often many times we can. seventy times seven - 490 times, it do not taken into literally exactly how many times to forgive, He shows us, that we ought to forgive them many times, when a person who sin against you, show have patience and mercy on person with love.

    Notice Matt 18:30 does not mean a Christian will be cast into prison is the picture of chasten in the outer darkeness for 1,000 years. That verse have do nothing with for a person being to be chasten in the outer darkeness for 1,000 years. This verse speaks of a person wants to revenge against person without forgive.

    How do I know? Please look above verse 27 - "The the lord of that servant was moved with COMPASSION, and loosed him, and FORGIVE him the debt."

    The context of Matt. 18:15-35 talks about forgive.

    Look next verse 28-30 talk about the example of two persons, the SAME servant who was out of prison(verse 27), that same servant still have obesses and revenge to other servant who still owe him. The same servant tells to person, that he have to owe him. Then, other servant fell upon him, begging him to have patience and still promise will pay all back. The same servant refuses, order that person, send to jail.

    When the lord hears about that servant, which he forgived him.- vs. 32, then the lord called the same servant, and say, 'O thou wicked servant, I FORGAVE thee all that debt, because you desiredst me:Shouldest not thou also have had COMPASSION on thy fellowservant, even as I had PITY on thee?' - vs. 32-33.

    So, verse 34 tells us, the lord angry on that servant for wrong doing, send servent to jail till he have to pay all debts to him.

    Remember, the context of Matt 18:23-34 do not take into literal, Christ used many parables to apply our spiritual life what we ought to doing the right thing.

    The context of Matt. 18:15-35 talking about FORGIVEeach other in compassion and love.

    Matt. 18:34 have NOTHING do with a Christian will be chasten in the outer darkeness for 1,000 years. Not what Christ was actual talking about. Matt. 18:23-35 talk about to forgive one other while live, not talk about AFTER death.

    I hope you understand what the context of Matt. 18:15-35 talking about.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    We are saved by free grace. Christ's blood makes us "accepted" in an absolute and eternal sense. Then why are we exhorted to labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If we don't labour we obviously will not be "accepted".

    In What sense?

    Lacy
     
  4. Bible-boy

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    Sorry Lacy,

    I don't see how we can limit access and/or participation in the thread to certain folks. This thread is contained within the Baptist Only section of the board. However, it is in the Baptist DEBATE Forums. Therefore, any professing Baptist many participate in the discussion.

    Yours in Christ,

    Bible-boy,
    Forum Moderator
     
  5. James_Newman

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    doesn't seem there are any pre-mil, eternal security believing Christians who are willing to debate this issue.
     
  6. av1611jim

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    I can tell you why they won't debate the issue.
    For them it is a non-issue.
    They seem to think they are right in their isegesis. We, who once believed as they, were also just as stubborn at one time. That is until The Blessed Holy Spirit saw fit to remove the scales from our eyes, and this happened only AFTER we yielded to the possibility that it MIGHT be true.
    Am I correct? Is this how it happened for you guys? It was for me.
    I thought, NO WAY!!!! But then I remembered my instructor in class. (Don't remember which class in Bible it was) He said God is always right. NEVER take doctrine TO the Bible to prove Doctrine. Always get doctrine FROM the Bible. So I looked for unbelievers in the warnings passages now being discussed. They are not there.
    So I think these fellers rather than admit they MAY BE wrong, they prefer to "save face" and walk away.
    Just a hunch.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  7. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    DPT;
    You are right. The context of the passage you have given is about forgiveness. It is ALSO about the CONSEQUENCES of a servant of God not forgiving his brother. There is no mention of the man losing his status as a servant of the King. But there is a phrase I think you missed.
    Look at verse 35.
    Jesus says LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father DO TO YOU if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his BROTHER their trespasses.
    This is a very loud and clear THUS SAITH THE LORD.
    You SHALL BE delivered up to torment to pay for your ungodly behavior until it is PAID in full. This points out a few things you ignore or disbelieve.
    1) You as a believer can be punished for ungodly behavior.
    2) Though punished, you WILL NOT lose your position as a servant of God.
    3) The punishment is temporary.
    You will also note, this 'kingdom of heaven' has a king.
    Jesus is King of Kings.
    He will receive a kingdom from His Father. It will last 1000 years. Then He will deliver it up to God at the end of this 1000 years.
    DPT; rather than prove your position, this passage proves ours.
    You have to change the common meaning and usage of many words in this passage for it to mean anything other than the PLAIN AND CLEAR meaning.
    I hope this helps you.
    I know you would want to be right with God in all of your endeavors.
    Striving to be accepted of Him is one goal of many Chritians today.
    While some who strive do so in the mistaken idea that they can lose their salvation, they, nevertheless do strive to live a holy and seperated life.
    Unfortunately they are needlessly in fear of eternity in hell when they SHOULD be totally assured that Jesus paid it all on the cross. All that is left for them to do is LIVE LIKE IT.
    Obey Him. Trust Him. And REST IN HIM.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Jim,

    This passage have deal with our present life.

    I do believe if a Christian do not forgive other person who sin against Christian, God would NOT forgive Christian. This verse have do nothing with suppose of millennial exclusion. Verse 35 speaks of if I do not forgive person who sin against me, same with God will not forgive me. TILL, I forgive person then God would forgive me also.

    I do believe God is chastening us while we are living according Hebrews chapter 12.

    Again, I telling you the context of Matt 18:23-35 do not taking into literal. Christ used illustrations or parable to apply our practical, what we are supposed to do the right thing with spiritual meaning.

    Still I do not see Matt 18:34 or 35 show prove it speak of millennial exclusion. That was your own logical. I do not support your logical. I rather stick what God's Word saying.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  10. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Ed,

    That was a strange post to "amen" for someone who (I assumed) believes in eternal security.

    Lacy
     
  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    DPT,
    Let's say next Sunday at church a fine upstanding Christian lady momentarily loses her temper because my family has taken her seat. She meets us in the parking lot after church and in a fit of rage executes my family one by one, saving me for last. I am filled with anger and shock but she kills me before I have a chance to forgive her.

    Did I lose my salvation?

    Lacy
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Lacy,

    Depend on what God would judge on you on the situtation. Your question is a little bit trick on me. But, I do understand what your point is talking about.

    I think, in your point is, you do not have time to forgive her, while she killed you so suddenly without expecting. You asked me, will it affects your salvation to lose? Depend on God judges.

    I believe God looks upon us throughout our lifetime, test our faith and life, see if we are truly repent and forgiving one each other often, even, faithfully to Christ all the way to death, I am sure that God would approved us to enter eternal life.

    I do not think this situation as you asked me about ONE sin what the lady wrong doing to your family and you, and caused you become into angry, and she killed you without have a chance forgive to her, will affect your salvation to lose.

    We cannot be expect our life to be 100% perfect without sin. We expect that we do sinned daily, Bible oftens telling us confess our sins to Christ faithfully (1 John 1:9), also, it commands us to forgive one another too.

    If suppose a Christian already repented of sins, confessed sins to Christ faithfully, forgive each other for in a while. When the time come to pass, A Christian become apostazing, decling praying, declinging confess to Christ, declining forgiving each other. Then back to world again, speak of backslidding. Then what happen next? Stop pray, stop repent, won't forgive each other. Is a person remains 'just' or 'righteous' in the Lord's sight? No. A person became lost again, also unrighteous. By the time comes when a person dies without repent, yes person will lose salvation.

    Later, I will discuss more on verses about 'rightesous' & 'just' in this topic.

    Yes, Matt 18:35 could be mean that God would not forgive us, IF we do not forgive them, will go to hell BY the time we die.

    Again, remember the context of Matt. 18:23-35 talking about to forgive one another often as we can. I still do not see prove of Matt. 18:34-35 show clear of millennial exclusion, because Jesus Christ does not mentioned 'a thousand years' or cast into fire either. Christ's point is, if we do not forgive one other, Christ would not forgive us, in other way, it could mean we are being chastening if we do not forgive one other.

    Conclusion: If a person continued without have repent and never forgive other person's sin, till by the time person dies, God will NOT forgive person's sin, yes person will go to hell without repent.

    I will discuss more on 'righteous' and 'just' with verses later. I think, I better post in other topic-'Will ever a Christian go to hell?' discuss on that issue.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. av1611jim

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    Alas, You can lead a horse to water....
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    I do not see anything in DPT's
    post that precludes eternal security.
    I know DPT doesn't believe in eternal security,
    but what he said in that one post is not
    dependant upon eternal security.
    So I said "Amen" (I'll argue with Bro. DPT in
    come other topic ;) )

    I do find it strange that so many post-tribs
    do not believe in eternal security. IMHO that
    makes the odds a million-to-one that one
    will survive the whole tribulation period
    without recanting.

    Brother Lacy, you familiar with the top
    topic of the early 4th century?
    It was: Can the rescendi be resaved?
    Strangely, the history of the early 4th
    century was written by the rescendi - those
    who did not rescend thier confession "Jesus
    is Lord" were martyred. The "resaved" rescendi
    were never really lost, just backslidden, and
    they wrote the history of the early 3th century
    Christians.

    1 John 1:9 (HCSB)
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful
    and righteous to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
     
  15. Askjo

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    Hi DeafPosttrib, Lacy means that when Lacy is saved, will he lose the salvation if he fall in sin. He asked you question as simple question. Can a saved person be lost again?
     
  16. Old Timer

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    quote; Lacy
    1) What is the "Labour" in verse 9 and how does it relate to salvation and/or holiness?

    That "labour" does not relate to salvation. In fact anyone who appears at the judgement seat of Christ is saved. A saved person can never lose their salvation. The " Labour " is serving the Lord in what ever way he leads. It will determine gain or loss of rewards and a "well done" from our Saviour.

    2) What is it that a Christian might "recieve" for the "bad" things "done in his body"? (ie. Is there negative reward at the JSOC?, And if so to what degree?)

    1 Cor . 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    3) What does the term "Terror of the Lord" mean to the walk of an eternally secure believer?

    Again it does not have to do with salvation it has to do with judgement from the Creator of the universe. Answering questions from one who knows the answer already and who knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    If that does not seem like terror to you then I suggest you spend some time reading the Old Test. of your bible and get to know God.
     
  17. Old Timer

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    quote; Lacy
    1) What is the "Labour" in verse 9 and how does it relate to salvation and/or holiness?

    That "labour" does not relate to salvation. In fact anyone who appears at the judgement seat of Christ is saved. A saved person can never lose their salvation. The " Labour " is serving the Lord in what ever way he leads. It will determine gain or loss of rewards and a "well done" from our Saviour.

    2) What is it that a Christian might "recieve" for the "bad" things "done in his body"? (ie. Is there negative reward at the JSOC?, And if so to what degree?)

    1 Cor . 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    3) What does the term "Terror of the Lord" mean to the walk of an eternally secure believer?

    Again it does not have to do with salvation it has to do with judgement from the Creator of the universe. Answering questions from one who knows the answer already and who knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    If that does not seem like terror to you then I suggest you spend some time reading the Old Test. of your bible and get to know God.
     
  18. av1611jim

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    DPT;
    You said, "I rather stick what God's Word saying".
    Ok.
    Matt 18:34-35
    "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."
    "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."
    God's word says..."TILL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE UNTO HIM"
    That's what it SAYS. You say you stick with what it says? Then do it. CLEARLY THE WORDS SAY YOU WILL BE DELIVERED TO THE TORMENTORS UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID ALL FOR YOUR UNGODLY ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES.
    This is irrefutable.
    Now on the one hand you SAY you stick to what God's word says but on the other you SAY that it MEANS something altogether different.
    DPT, you may wish to have it both ways but by your own admission you cannot.
    You say Matt 18:35 "could mean..." but it does not. It means exactly what it says and no amount of your isegesis will change it.
    Take your doctrine FROM Scripture not TO Scripture.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  19. av1611jim

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    DPT;
    You have been playing the context trumpet for awhile now. Let's look at the CONTEXT of this passage, Matt 18:23-35, shall we?
    Matt 18;23
    "Therefore is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN likened unto a certain KING, which would take account of HIS SERVANTS."
    Clearly Jesus is teaching about the "accounting day", the Judgement Seat of Christ, for He speaks of taking account of His SERVANTS.
    Secondly, He gives a story to ILLUSTRATE what will actually take place for He says ..."Is...likened unto...".
    Remember DPT, context.
    You say you cannot take this literal when in CONTEXT Jesus Himself tells us to do so.
    If I were to tell you that our faithfulness to Jesus ought to "be like the faithfulness of a loving dog to his master", then I am NOT saying we should BE a dog but have the characteristics of a FAITHFUL dog. For example; a dog loves you no matter what because he trusts you. Therefore if you discipline a dog, he will take it and correct his behavior because he trust you. He looks to you for his every care. He looks to you for his food, water, comfort, protection and companionship. This ILLUSTRATES how we should behave towards Jesus. Not that we should BE a dog literally but LITERALLY behave LIKE a dog to his master.
    Get it?
    The SAME is true of the stories Jesus uses to ILLUSTRATE a truth He wants us to understand.
    Get it?
    So to summ it up;
    This passage IS teaching a truth about what?
    The Kingdom of Heaven.
    This passage IS teaching a truth about what?
    Our ATTITUDES to our brothers.
    This passage IS teaching a truth about what?
    The CONSEQUENCES for unforgiveness towards our brothers.
    This passage IS teaching a truth about what?
    The DURATION of our chastisement should we displease our KING.
    DPT, I can see that you really do dig into the Book to find your answers. This is a good thing. But you do make a mistake when you take your doctrine TO the Book rather than take it FROM the Book.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  20. Lacy Evans

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    I concur. DPT is very gentle and humble in his attitude and it is obvious that he studies hard. This is commendable.

    lacy
     

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