July 4

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Servent, Jun 28, 2007.

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  1. Servent

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    Driving to work today I kept seeing Flags being displayed in yards and at business and other places where you would normally see them, It got me to thinking about the Country I live in and the freedom that I have, The men and women who gave up so much so that I could have that freedom. Then my thoughts turned to Christ and what He gave up for me and how truly free I am, Free from the bondage of sin free from death, made me cry.
    Just something to think about as we celebrate the 4th.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Had a t-shirt once with the outline of a hill and a cross on it, in red, and backgrounded by black, and the words "thousands died for my freedom, one died for my soul".

    Happy B-day, America !
     
  3. ktn4eg

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    I'm reminded of the thoughts that ran through my mind when I visited the temporary memorial that had been erected near the 9/11 crash site of United Flight 93 outside of Shanksville PA.

    What caught my attention there was a large cross that someone had placed there on that lonely hillside.

    When I saw that cross there, I thought of another cross that had been erected on another lonely hillside some 2,000 years ago--the cross upon which Jesus died so that He might rescue us from the throes of the worst terrorist of all: Satan himself.

    While as an American I'm thankful for the sacrifices made by those brave people aboard that plane on 9/11, as a Christian I'm much more thankful for the sacrifice that the Son of God made on the cross for all of us.
     
  4. webdog

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    That's a great quote!
     
  5. av1611jim

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    Were it not for Christ, we would have no America. It was Christian people who came to these shores to escape tyranny, and although I believe the Rebellion was wrong, I am thankful for the freedoms we enjoy due to the freedom we have in Christ.
     
  6. saturneptune

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    The rebellion was wrong? I dont think so. It was called defending liberty and freedom. This is the best nation God has ever allowed to exist, has done more good for all its problems, and I will guess, it has not been unkind to you.

    If you think the rebellion was wrong, move to England and kiss Prince Charles royal ring.
     
  7. av1611jim

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    I'll not derail this thread but to say this:
    Proverbs 17:11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

    You are not going to find God approving of rebellion anywhere in Scripture.

    Nevertheless, although the "freedoms" I enjoy in this country are pleasant, I really had no choice in the matter of the place of my birth. Your silly retort that I should "kiss Prince Charles royal ring" is uncalled for and is a blatant case of one 'christian' deriding another, which BTW is sin.

    I am grateful for our "freedoms" which the rebellion won for us. These freedoms allow me to preach the Gospel without fear of being shot. At the same time however, those very freedoms have also enabled evil men to kill 40 million unborn babies in this nation. Is it truly something to "celebrate" or should we mourn what those "freedoms" have cost in innocent lives?

    And one more thing I might add. The church as a whole in America is woefully impotent BECAUSE of these freedoms. It has gotten so soft that we often debate meaningless issues rather than pounding the streets preaching the Gospel to every passerby. We can't even agree what sin IS anymore. It is persecution alone which strengthens the church, for it is persecution which "weeds out" the false professors. And although I do not pine for persecution, one need only look to countries in which active persecution of the church is rampant and one will see that the underground church is much more effective that our "free" church.

    Now you may quip something like "if you don't like it here then move" and you would be exercising a "right" won by the rebellion, but you would hardly be engaging in intelligent discourse. For every "good" thing you may name which the rebellion "won" for us, I can and will counter with ten which it has cost us. And I surmise that you can also.

    No sir. I do not see the rebellion as an overall good thing at all.
     
  8. jshurley04

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    Rebellion in WRONG?!?!

    So Christ rebelling against the religious/political establishment of 1st century Israel was wrong?

    Those nations that opposed the will of Hitler after he had conquered the majority of Europe and then they rebelled against him were wrong?

    For us to stand up and rebell against the direction of Congress and our President when they choose an immoral or unscriptural path is wrong and brings negative things into our lives?

    Sir, yours is the type of attitude that is so off putting to those that the Holy Spirit is drawing but they are resisting because of this attitude and its lack of love.
     
  9. av1611jim

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    jshurley04;

    Huh? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Try rethinking what you want to say and address each point of my post and leave your emotional knee jerk reaction at home.

    Nothing you said is even remotely akin to an intelligent discourse about the subject.

    Try again. I will gladly engage you with debate should you come prepared with something debateable.

    Oh and one more thing.....luv ya man!
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Have you checked the NT for ANY evidence of truth in this statement?

    To portray our Lord as a rebel, or Paul as rebelling against the authority, is ludicrous.

    They lived in a far worse nation and under a horrendously ungodly government compared to ours today AND DID NOT REBEL.

    Get a grip on what Jesus taught and how He lived and see how laughable your position is. :(
     
  11. Rufus_1611

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    Hi Jim. Though I am a constitutional proponent, I struggle with this issue as there is no discounting the scripture you cited. Nor can we discount a verse like...

    "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." - 1 Samuel 15:23

    ...or the verses that describe insurrection so negatively (Ezra 4:19, Mark 15:7, Acts 18:12). So whether or not the rebellion of the colonists against a King was a righteous event, especially considering the citizens of the colonies were in a far less oppressed situation than citizens of today are under the current tyrant, is an excellent question.

    It's a question we should ask ourselves. What kind of Christians would we be if we were born in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany etc? What kind of Christians are we when blessed with such religious freedom?

    Don't sweat that too much, one can typically get a sense for how much talk radio or Fox News another listens too by what they believe qualifies as debate.
    I would disagree that the rebellion led to the murdering of 40 million unborn babies. Those murders occurred as a result of a Supreme Court radically diverging from the Constitution and from the branches of gov't responsible for putting them in check, not doing so. It also came about as a result of Americans compromising and allowing such an atrocious decision and most importantly from each individual woman who killed her unborn child.

    I would suggest that the church as a whole in America is not free, as they have yolked up with the state via incorporation and 501c3 associations. This has placed them under the authority of the state as they are not allowed to say things that are opposed to "fundamental public policy" and they are afraid of the IRS threatening their tax status and properties.

    That's a talk radio / O'Reilly tactic and you're right, it is inconsistent with intelligent discourse.

    Rebellion is certainly not a good thing and ultimately that is the condition this world, particularly America, is currently in. Children are rebelling against their parents. Wives are rebelling against their husbands. Men are not putting themselves under the authority of Godly preachers. Contemporarily in the United States, folks are rebelling against the Constitution (even if it was possibly birthed in iniquity) and in the past our country rebelled against a King. If history demonstrates nothing else, it demonstrates that all of man's efforts at governing himself (and others) have failed.

    The best hope for government...

    "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." - Hebrews 11:16
     
    #11 Rufus_1611, Jul 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2007
  12. tinytim

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    Standing up for what is right and decent is not rebellion.
    And Christ did rebel against the authorities... I am sure the authorities approved and sanctioned his actions in the temple when he took a whip to the money changers. (sarcasm) The money changers worked for and with the authorities.

    Christ was right, but it was seen as an act of rebellion by the Pharisees and religious authorities...

    James and John rebelled when they were told they couldn't preach... they told the authorities that they were going to do it anyway... an act of rebellion...

    Our fore fathers stood on this same right.. the right to worship as they saw fit. It was a God honored act of rebellion against an evil system that repressed God's people.

    If you all don't want to rebel against evil, so be it, but don't expect all Christians to follow suit.
     
  13. saturneptune

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    Your post above said no one can tell anymore what is sin and what is not. You are correct. My quote to you is not a sin, but my expression to you of your lack of gratitude for this nation.

    Yes, we have problems, but this nation has done lots of good, has given lots of people hope. If you have nothing positive to say about it, move to England.

    By the way, what I would consider sin is criticizing what God ordained, and that is the establishment of this country.
     
  14. Wanderer

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    I'm just thankful for what God has blessed this country with. However I do think the founding fathers would start a new revolution if they saw how congress works or how the Americans in this beautiful country have gotten Liberty and Freedom mixed up in politics and general law enforcement.

    Also around my part of Michigan hasn't been very festive or patriotic.

    As long as we have good Christians in this country doing gods work and winning souls we will still stand and not fall.
     
  15. rbell

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    actually, if all rebellion is wrong, shouldn't we all head back to the Middle East? :eek:



    I see absolutely no link between our freedoms and abortion. That is not a result of the 1776 rebellion--it is a result, as Rufus said, of a court gone berserk. Non-sequitur, IMO.

    As has been said, there are certainly scripturally enumerated instances of men not doing what the authorities command.
     
  16. rbell

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    Jim, would not your view make all military service wrong? I mean...you would either be...
    • working to enable some form of "rebellion" (such as the liberation of Germany in WW2), or,
    • fighting against a conquering power (rebelling against an entity who would attempt to have power over us?)
    Here's another one for you, extreme as it is: Suppose England were to declare war and try to "take our country back." Shouldn't, according to your logic, we let them?

    And then, if the Italians wanted to take England (and its territories) back...shouldn't we let them? Where would it stop? We may all be Iraqis before this is over with.:laugh:
     
  17. blackbird

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    Jesus didn't rebel against the establishment----the establishment rebelled against Him!!! Both Pilate and Harod didn't find one shread of evidence that pointed to any sort of rebellion by Jesus!!!
     
  18. av1611jim

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    Not at all. I was a US Marine and proud of it. I enlisted to defend my country against foreign and domestic enemies. Nothing "rebellious" about that.
    Secondly, we did no go to Europe to "liberate" Germany. We went to whip their ***** because THEY were invading other countries and threatening to invade US eventually.


    Your imaginary scenarios have NOTHING to do with "rebellion" at all. And I never espoused reversing what has already happened. That kind of talk is just plain stupid IMO.
     
  19. av1611jim

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    Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

    These three have been enshrined in our country. Even idolized by the majority. These three 'freedoms' taken to the extreme by ungodly men have perverted freedom to choose and truend it into freedom to kill. Yes. I DO see a direct link between our freedoms guaranteed in our country and the rampant disregard for the most innocent life by the godless among us. Said "court gone beserk" could not have gotten 'berserk' were it not for ungodly men and unrestrained "freedoms" secured by the rebellion.

    One of our founding fathers once said that this form of government is wholly inadequate for an irreligious people and will surely fail in a secular society. We see that coming true all around us. Our very "freedoms" are what is killing our nation.

    Even so, Come, Lord Jesus. For it is He alone who can give us proper government. I do not wish to live elsewhere. I like it here. I like the relative freedoms I still enjoy. I am just saying that Scripturally speaking, the rebellion was DEAD WRONG!
     
  20. av1611jim

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    Rufus;
    Thank you for a very well thought out reply. We disagree about the root cause of abortion in the context of this discussion (we ALL know the root is sin) but you gave me something to think about concerning freedoms and the church.
    I will have to agree that the church in America is no longer free. I have often wondered WHY it is we have to get PERMISSION from the Government to be tax exempt. One could argue that the church is in rebellion against her Lord. But that is another discussion altogether, though still somewhat related to the current subject.
    Again, Thanks for your thoughtful and gracious reply.
     
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