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Featured Jumping Pews

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by HAMel, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. Ed B

    Ed B Member

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    No, because it predates all contact I had with Pentecostals. It goes back to a soul-winning Baptist church I attended in my teens. When we really let our hair down we sang from the Heavanly Highway Hymnals. But there were some very emotional moments in worship, particularly during alter calls. We didn't know we were supposed to remain stoic. Something about coming to grips with one's sinfulness amd His mercy and grace can make some people quite emotional.
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, but those baptist churches you reference probably borrowed the language from Pentecostals and that language trickled down to you. A "move of the Holy Ghost" is not, as far as I know, biblical language. I surmise that its moorings are in the very unbiblical Pentecostal movement.

    Also, I am not against emotions. I am not a proponent of stoicism in worship. I am simply against emotion for the sake of emotion and then CALLING it the Holy Spirit when it is really just nostalgia concerning the atmosphere that the place of "worship" creates.
     
  3. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Agreed....

    ....but, then again, there are many references in both the Old and New Testament that must have involved some percentage of emotion!

    Your comment is probably correct, but it is something that a graduate from a seminary would see the movement of the Spirit as being, and maybe cause you to miss out on something very special! Sometimes, Luke, too much analysis leads to spiritual paralysis!
    And like you said to me in another post, I do not know you, so I am merely making an educated observation.

    BTW - I think you rou read between the lines when you thought I said your head was up a bodily orifice! There are other things a person can have their head up, i.e., too much intellectual knowledge, books, or, ego! I am truly sorry if that offended you. But, you know, you offended some of us plain and simple folk when you talked down your nose, and said, "The stupidity of people in the pew in this country is directly related to the stupidity we've had in the pulpits in this country for the last 7 or 8 decades." Have you apologized yet? Didn't think so! And for your knowledge, Luke, there have been many well educated pastors, preachers and teachers in the pulpit over the last hundred years. I hold men like Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Jerry Falwell, James Kennedy, Merril Unger, Pat Robertson, Charles Stanely, Chuck Smith, and maybe even W.A. Criswell and Chuck Swindoll just to name a few! I think all of these men were around over the past 7 or 8 decades, and behind a pulpit to boot???

    I think you were reacting out of that emotional side of your brain when you spoke down to those who are influenced a little by emotion as well as the actual supernatural movement of the Holy Spirit! Maybe just a little???:smilewinkgrin:
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Would you not call the First Great Awakening in colonial America a "move of the Holy Spirit"? It led to the concept of freedom and liberty, not just in spiritual life, but in daily life as well.

    How about the Second Great Awakening? It founded the basis of evangelical Christianity in the U.S.

    The Third Great Awakening? There is debate about whether there has been one already, or if we are on the verge of seeing that now. There was a revival of a pious attitude -- in fact, the resurgence of this movement is known as the Pietistic Movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But what it did primarily was give rise to the social gospel, which has replaced the true gospel in many liberal churches today, as well as hatch the Pentecostal movement.

    President George W. Bush said in 2006 that he saw the beginnings of a true Third Great Awakening in the turn to biblical principle, church attendance, prayer and Bible study after the 9/11 attacks.

    whether it is or not is still to be seen. My point in this history lesson is that the Holy Spirit does indeed "move" and is obvious He has moved in this country more than once. Saying you see the "movement of the Holy Spirit" doesn't make you a Pentecostal. They don't have a corner on the Holy Spirit and how He moves within the faith communities of the world.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    think that we Baptists have tended to discount all activities of the Holy Spirit to be all not biblical IF it came form eitherPentacostal/Charasmatic sources!

    Would say that MUCH of what is alleged to be from here in those places NOT of Him, but no need to throw out the baby with bat water, just be discerning!
     
  6. USN2Pulpit

    USN2Pulpit New Member

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    Correction: you were attacking the guy. C'mon dude, be honest about this. You wrote it and you posted it. If someone said this to your face, you'd call it an attack, right?

    What makes the fact that it's on the internet any different?
     
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Paul, how many times do I have to say that I am not against emotion?

    I've been on both sides, though, Paul. My cousin is a Church of God preacher. My uncle is a Pentecostal preacher. The first church I attended was Pentecostal. Then, in my teens, I was saved in a Free Will Baptist Church that was very emotional and part of a circle of camp meeting type baptists that shouted and leaped and ran the aisles. I have run the aisles a few times myself. I have always been a shouter.

    But this language of "the Holy Ghost is moving in this place" based on some powerful emotional experience is dangerous. When people say "the Holy Ghost spoke to me and said" - this is EXTREMELY dangerous. And the biggest problem is that we are being guided, not primarily by the Bible and wisdom in these churches, but by the VERY WORST PART OF US- our fickle, deceptive, most self-centered of all our faculties- emotions.

    Jeremiah said, "The heart of man is desperately wicked, DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, who can know it?"

    We need to let our minds tell our hearts how to feel instead of letting our hearts tell our minds how to think.

    And our minds need to be filled with the Word of God, not new revelations people claim have come to them from the "Holy Ghost."

    Yea, but Paul, you took that personally when I did not aim it at you. I meant what I said- and that is that IN THIS CULTURE there is a deadly level of stupidity in the church today. People are woefully ignorant of Bible doctrine which translates to messed up lives and homes and anemic churches.

    I think dethroning the intellect and enthroning the emotions has led to this. By this I mean that the faculty we have that ought to govern our other faculties is the intellect. Of course Jesus Christ ought to be the King of our lives but the way we know him and submit to him is through the intellect first.

    I am very thankful for most of the men in your list. Other than Pat Robertson they do not, however, represent the trend in our culture. W. A. Criswell is possibly my favorite preacher in the last century. The only other man who rivals him is D. James Kennedy.

    I am emotional about this issue. I am a very passionate man. This is the one thing, even above Cal vs Arm, that I think matters most in our culture.
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I champion the First Great Awakening. I am very hesitant about singing the praises of the Second under Finney.

    Regardless, neither justifies this phrase "move of the Holy Ghost." I don't have any problem with the phrase whatsoever other than the fact that it seems to come to us from Pentecostalism. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe some great Baptist like Spurgeon used it first. I don't know. But what it has come to mean in this day and age is a wave of emotional ecstasy not tied to the intellect.

    The "intellect" has become a bi-word in this day and age. We are comfortable with touting emotions and very uncomfortable praising the virtues of the intellect. But the BIBLE champions the MIND. Do a concordance search of "mind" and see how many times God calls upon us to use it to guide us, to fill it with wisdom and his word and be guided by it.

    But we spit on it today. We HATE intellectuals in the pulpit. We HATE seminaries. We gush over hyper-emotional, backwards, uneducated preachers.

    We are a mess. I pray the next revival that comes to our culture will be one of godly wisdom, stability and intelligence.
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    One, "ghost" is an outmoded and bad translation from the KJV which I don't use. Secondly, what moved, then? Man? Highly unlikely.

    I really don't care how the phrase comes to us, in many circumstances it is an accurate description of what takes place.

    Regardless of how the mind is to guide us, repeatedly, throughout church and human history, it has taken the leadership of the Holy Spirit -- His "movement" -- to spark revival, awakening, whatever one wishes to call it. Distaste for the perceived origin of a phrase is no cause not to use it when appropriate.

    I really don't know who you are talking about. No one I know in my church or among my Christian friends despises good intellectual theology.

    But that will take a "move" of the Holy Spirit, won't it?
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what we need is to have the Bible and proper reading/understanding, and application of it back into the church...

    didn't agree with him on everything he said, but think Dr J vernon mcGee was right to call us 'back to the bible!"
     
  11. evenifigoalone

    evenifigoalone Well-Known Member

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    Y'know, I don't know about overall, but some of the accounts I remember hearing from the Great Awakening seemed a little bit lively and emotional.
    According to one of my history books, I recall reading that it was reported that some people would sway back and forth violently almost to the point of touching the floor...don't know how that's possible, but...
     
  12. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Well, Lukw!

    ....I do believe I see you in a new and different light, and I like what I see. I appreciated your candor. You have a wide range of preaching styles in your family which should make for an interesting Thanksgiving dinner, especially when it comes to the prayer of grace! :laugh:

    I did hear you, and love you for your gentle spirit! And I meant it when I said I was sorry for that comment that you took wrongly! God bless!:praying:
     
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Thank you for your understanding and patience.

    I feel things deeply. I believe things very passionately. I long greatly to challenge error that I think hurts us and to help people see things in a way that I think would help us tremendously.

    Because I am that way, I know I come across a certain way. Thank you for understanding. I honestly believe it takes a person with a genuine Christian spirit to do so when I seemingly oppose that someone. Its one thing to be patient with people who support your ideas. Its another thing to be understanding of someone who vehemently seems to oppose them. That is a level of spiritual maturity that is rare. I commend you.
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    But I don't think anyone in this conversation is discounting powerful emotional experiences.
     
  15. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks brother....

    ...I appreciate your sincerity and want you to know, that any spiritual maturity I may manifest has come about with the help of the members on this board who try my patience to a point of tears, at times! I stay because I believe, regardless of our differences, I will see all of you in heaven. :thumbs:

    Certainly our differences will not exclude any of us from glory! We are all saved by the same blood, we just have differences of opinions once we come to Him! Still, there is room for differences because it will all pan out or work out in the end! :wavey:
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Actually they sang a song and danced:

    Exodus 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
    2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
    3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
    4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
    5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
    6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
    7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
    8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
    9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
    10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
    11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
    12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
    13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
    14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
    15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
    16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
    17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
    18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
    19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.
    20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
    21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.​

    HankD​
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    now THAT was making a joyful song unto the Lord!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    hav e to be very careful and discerning on stuff like that, as having 'witnessed" being "slain in the Spirit", that was product of overpowering preacher and lots of mass hysteriy, self effort!
     
  19. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    That would be the one commonly referred to by the Pentecostals as the "Third" Great Awakening, but it simply fomented the craziness we see among some of those churches today. I wouldn't call it a "great awakening" but merely the birth of a "strange fire" among false prophets. The first two, in the early 1700s and in the late 1700s to early 1800s, produced the basis for solid evangelical church activity which still thrive today.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would call the "third' one satan warm up for thre great deception labeled as the Azusa "revival!"
     
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