Just an FYI

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Recently there has been a lot of self justification being preached, that is, that it is not enough to have believed on Jesus Christ and His works of justification, but that one must do their own works and deeds, as well as "do all that you can do" to live righteously and then, and only then, will the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ gain you eternal life.

    What is surprising to me is that there are even professing Baptist here who hold to this "of yourselves" antichrist doctrine. I believe what distinguishes biblical Christianity from the false is this crucial doctrine. Apart from all other differences, this doctrine alone is not simply a difference of opinion, but rather as Paul stated it in Galatians, any other doctrine than faith alone is accursed.

    Here is are a couple of links for everyone to read so they may understand the difference we are speaking of here between the biblical Truth of justification by faith alone and the antichrist doctrine which declares "of yourselves".

    http://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

    http://mormon.org/faq/beliefs-on-grace

    Ask yourselves, do you sound like one of these when you preach?
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    the message of the Apsotles was that sinners are saved by Grace of the Cross alone, received thru faith alone...

    Any other Gospel is false, and accursed in origin!!
     
  3. evangelist-7

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    You OSAS boys are dismissing, ignoring, rejecting, laughing at, etc.
    the many dozens of warnings and threats, which were written to the churches!
    Some of the warnings actually spell it out clearly ... about church members rejecting/losing eternal life!

    And prior to this, Jesus spoke many dozens of warnings to everyone, including those who would be born again!
    Yes, He didn't want people like you complaining that only the epistle writers warned of eternal death!

    These were necessary to help overcome man's incredibly-powerful inherited sin nature!
    Why do you think Jesus warned the members of all 7 churches (Rev 2-3) that they had to be overcomers?

    Sorry, I'm not going to repeat these warnings! ... You have read them enough times already!

    Probably the Lord had them written just for those who were elected before the foundation of the world!
    (Writing them to anyone else would be a waste of time.)
    After all, He knew beforehand which ones would heed the warnings ... those He elected and called!
    They would follow the warnings with the indispensible help of the precious indwelling Holy Spirit, of course!

    .
     
  4. Salty

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    :sleep::sleep::sleep:


    :thumbsup: Is that really a promise?
     
  5. steaver

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    Actually, this statement is false. What we do is we keep scripture in context and consider the full counsel of God's word when determining the applications thereof.

    Maybe church members, but no such scriptures found in the Holy Bible declaring born-again Christians losing salvation.

    Actually, Jesus overcame so that all who trust in His works will be saved. We do good works because we are saved, not the other way around, that would be Mormonism.

    Because there are always false professors. Heb3:12 - "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

    That would be best, repentance would be even better.

    Actually, it is the Holy Spirit whom has taught me the correct application of all those scriptures which are troubling you. What one has to do is begin their study with - "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1Cr3:11). When you understand it is by grace ye are saved through faith and this NOT of Yourselves, then and only then will these passages make sense for you.
     
  6. evangelist-7

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    Oh, really, what about the ones who fell away from the faith, and the ones who fell from grace!

    No matter ... the epistle writers didn't use the term BAC.

    Everything's not so cut and dried ... the Holy Spirit needs to clarify.

    Warning: Paul is extremely clever and crafty!

    For example, you have NO idea what Romans 6:15-23 is saying!
    Got time for 1 or 2 short sentences to explain.
    I'll save you some time: Don't bother lookin' at your Baptist teachings.
    Pressure's on, bud.

    .
     
    #6 evangelist-7, Sep 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  7. steaver

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    Absolutely, after consulting with the Holy Spirit and much study to rightly divide the word of truth, the Spirit told me works have no part in one's justification, that it is by faith, the just shall walk by faith. The Spirit also told me that once a person is born of God that person is a child forever, it cannot be revoked, but warned that bad children will be disciplined by their Father in heaven, even to the point of physical death if need be that the soul/spirit may remain in Christ as promised.

    Listen carefully, and do your homework in the scriptures, and the Spirit will tell you the same thing.

    There is nothing hidden from God's children, God freely gives His children all the knowledge they need, written for us in very simple ways to understand. If it seems tricky or clever to some, I would suggest humbling oneself before God and pray the Spirit open up the truth. This is what I did about 15 years ago when I was getting confused about all the voices out there speaking different doctrines. It could be that a prideful spirit is hampering what the Holy Spirit wants to teach.

    I read the scripture, what jumps out right away without doing much digging is the fact that Paul says Christians are MADE free from sin! Key word "MADE". And the fact that eternal life is a GIFT! Praise Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and the Spirit's work which has regenerated us, recreated us with a new heart being slaves to righteousness and teaching us to love God and love each other! Grace, Grace, Marvelous Grace!

    A good exercise would be to read, or sing, the hundreds of hymns written over the past couple of centuries and just feel the Holy Spirit well up within your heart! Just a warning though, you will not find any that sing about marvelous Grace "after you do all that you can do".

    Grace brother, ask the Spirit what that means and get truly FREE! :love2:
     
  8. BobRyan

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    The OP casts this view in a certain way without using any quotes or explaining the Bible texts used in the discussion of the subject.

    How is that supposed to work for the objective unbiased reader?

    James and John argue that claiming belief on Christ - without the corresponding change in life - is not real belief on Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. steaver

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    Actually, the OP listed two links supporting the OP talking points which contain scripture as well.


    Amen, that's what I preach :thumbsup:

    Not, "after you do all that you can do" Jesus will save you.
     
  10. Rippon

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    Yes, we have read your red remarks to last us a long time!

     
  11. Yeshua1

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    canyou provide for us just ONE NT person who was really saved, and then lost salvation, and died and went to hell?
     
  12. evangelist-7

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    Reading isn't enough ... as you know, the Spirit must give the understanding.
    And this is not found by reading black words printed on white paper.

    Paul main point in Romans 6:15-23, summarized ...

    As BACs, they are new creations ... made to be slaves of God, obedience, righteousness!
    If they are not actually BEING/DOING those things,
    they have chosen to be slaves of sin and their end will be eternal death (6:16, 6:22, 6:23).
    I.E. Get with the program, boys, or else!

    .
     
  13. steaver

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    Yes, I already explained to you previously that the Spirit is the one giving me understanding.

    We seem to have two problems here with your summary. (1) It is obvious the Spirit wasn't consulted for your answer since it is wrong. (2) Even just reading the text without the Spirit's guidance it is wrong.

    Your summary is contradictory in itself. When one becomes born again it is because they have chosen to be slaves to righteousness. They are freed from sin and have been given eternal life, once a person has eternal life, well, it is NEVER ENDING!! That is why it is called ETERNAL!! Yes, please, pray the Spirit to guide you here brother.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Then the crux of the matter is the claim to believe in Christ WITH the corresponding change in the life ...

    followed later by a continued claim to believe on Christ but now WITHOUT the corresponding change in the life...

    And the question to asked -- is this "fallen from Grace... severed from Christ" as we see it in Gal 5:4?

    Is this "forgiveness revoked" as we find it in Matt 18 and Ezek 18.??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. steaver

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    Yes, as James says, faith without works is dead (2:26), those who say they have faith will have works, yet it is not the works that justify the sinner, they only justify the said faith (2:18). As James gives the example of Abraham obeying God in the matter of Isaac, and then ends the story with - "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God (and worked? No, only believed, the works only justified the said faith, or proved the claim to believe), and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?"

    Yes, this is also covered in the scripture -

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1Jo2:19)

    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (Jo8:31)

    - and the many other passages of warnings to examine yourself, whether ye be in the faith -

    No

    No, no such thing as forgiveness revoked, this would be against the character and promises of God - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro11:29)

    God's word cannot contradict itself, therefore your (and only yours) interpretation of Matt 18 and Ezek 18 are error. As I told you once before, repeating this over and over really destroys any credibility you may otherwise have in defending your pov that one can forfeit their salvation. I mean, some scriptures are understandably difficult to harmonize with OSAS, but this "forgiveness revoked" angle you cane up with is just glaringly wrong. It takes away from your argument.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    1. You do not deal with Matt 18 or Ezek 18 and Gal 5:4 in your response except to claim that you reject it. That is not exegesis of the texts. What false doctrine could not be propped up using that method?

    You then claim that your avoidance of the texts - is supposed to present my argument in a bad light - because I keep bringing this up??

    I find your logic illusive at that point. No wonder this topic then keeps resurfacing.

    2. You say "you and only you" - I find that curious. What in the world are you talking about?? Are you suggesting some sort of "alternate reality"??

    3. You quote Romans 11 where we find "you stand only by your faith - you should fear for if God did not spare them ... neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

    I do not think this chapter is making your case at all -as the evidence "from the chapter itself" that I just quoted - proves.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. evangelist-7

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    Thou art missing (as per usual) the 3 warnings/threats of eternal death!

    If they've already chosen da good stuff, why the warnings/threats?

    Na, bud, he's tellin' dem to choose between:

    What they have been newly-created to be!
    or ...
    What de're doin' now, which is bein' slaves of sin!

    Thou must understandeth ... the warnings are not just for them, they're for thou as well.

     
  18. steaver

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    Those scriptures have been thoroughly vetted here between us and others, you reject their proper interpretation and application. One cannot force you to see your misapplication - you have that freewill right.

    What is so fascinating about a Law Keeper pointing to Galatians 5 as a support passage for one losing salvation is that very passage is condemning that very Law Keeper as having fallen from Grace! Seventh Day Adventist focus their ministry on keeping the Law which no one listening to them preach would come away with any other conclusion than one must obey the Law to be justified before God. Yet they do not see the passage is pointing the finger directly at them.

    You and you alone Bob is the only one I ever seen say God revokes forgiveness. It is foreign to the scriptures, to this board and to any main stream Christian preaching among a whole bunch of denominations. What is curious is the fact that you don't see this and still think it makes sense!

    Another interesting chapter for a Law Keeper to reference. Seventh Day Adventist focus mainly on keeping their congregation living in fear of breaking God's Law and losing their salvation. Yet here we have a favorite passage for anti-OSAS folks, who believe that Law breaking will send you to hell, saying "you stand ONLY by your FAITH". And yet you will go away and post it yet again, over and over, when the very passage defeats your argument.

    Not to mention 11:29, when it states " "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" - but just wait, another thread will be started about OSAS and lo and behold, you will post yet again these passages which defeat your argument. Now isn't that just odd????????
     
  19. steaver

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    Oh I see! So we have to stop trying to be justified by the Law to be saved and rather come to faith in Jesus Christ to be saved/born again and then we have to return back to trying to be justified by the Law again to stay saved. Yeah, that makes perfect sense! :love2:
     
  20. BobRyan

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    In my post - I comment that in your OP you do not address the actual texts that refute OSAS - such as Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) - Ezek 18 (salvation revoked), Gal 5:4 (Fallen from Grace, Severed from Christ) etc.

    In fact your OP rich in name-calling (which we see almost all the time on certain Baptist threads - without end) but totally absent when it comes to dealing with the texts that expose the flaws in OSAS>

    That is yet another excuse for avoiding the texts that expose the flaws in OSAS.

    As I asked before -what false doctrine could not be propped up by simply using excuses to avoid the texts that reveal that doctrine to be false?


    Interesting phrasing given that 1John 2 says that those who do not keep Christ's commandments and yet claim to know Christ - do not know what they are talking about.

    I find it odd that you would go there.

    Your not actually quoting Gal 5 - just taking it out of context AS IF Paul never said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 or Christ never said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
    or John had never said that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    Even your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" and your own D.L Moody and C.H. Spurgeon argue for keeping the Commandments of God - the very thing you are claiming to be at war with in your comment above.

    Surely you cannot spin this a "just me alone"...

    In all this you still do not deal with the Gal 5:4 problem for OSAS "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ you have fallen FROM Grace".

    Is it "numbers" you are concerned with?

    Didn't we already go over the point that the Seventh-day Baptists are one of the groups that influenced the early Adventists to become Seventh-day Adventists - and that the Southern Baptists are much more numerous than the Seventh-day Baptists -- and that the Seventh-day Adventists are larger than both of them combined!! (Not to mention John Wesley and the Methodists and other groups that admit to the Bible fact that OSAS is not biblical.)

    I don't see why you think this numbers game would be the right way to go.


    Here again - instead of addressing the texts that are so fully debunking OSAS - your solution is to invent stories about this or that denomination.

    But your story telling is not the same thing as actual Bible study - doing actual exegesis of Ezek 18, Matt 18, Gal 5:4 etc. It is just a continued example of avoiding it.


    Indeed we do - and when we quote the Bible in complete sentences (as opposed to your method above) and indeed in complete verses and paragraphs your argument from Romans 11 falls flat. Which is why when I quoted it I include the words "around that little lifted sentence fragment you are holding up" to show how it destroys OSAS.

    The very passage identified totally destroys OSAS.

    Read it "again" - BEYOND your 5 or 6 word sentence "Fragment".

    9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    In Romans 11 Paul points out that believing Jews AND believing Gentiles make up what God calls "Israel" (just as Paul states at the end of Romans 2). The promises of God given to Israel - then continue in true irrevocable fashion because they are not for "Children of the flesh - but children of the promise" as Paul tells us in Romans 9.

    This is the accurate Romans 11 and Romans 9 and Romans 2 context for the sentence "fragment" -- "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"




    Indeed - a great sentence "fragment" but as I noted above it works better when you are willing to read all of Romans 11 - because then the context for that "fragment" comes through.


    Indeed - because as we see in this thread - you refuse to deal with the actual texts - beyond at most a tiny 6 word sentence fragment.

    And who can blame you if your goal is to cling to OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary in the very chapter you are referencing?

    Is it my fault that it is so easy to point to where the Bible refutes OSAS in the very Romans 11 chapter that you raised here?

    Really? Seriously?

    The last two or three posts are perfect for illustrating the point I am making about the OSAS guys not actually engaging in exegesis but rather running from the chapters that so fully debunk OSAS. Why wouldn't I want to quote this very sort of exchange to any unbiased objective reader and ask them to make up their own mind seeing how the two sides are presenting their case from scripture alone or from name-calling alone - take your pick of the method you want to use.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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