Just answering a couple comments before I slither.

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by exscentric, Feb 26, 2007.

  1. exscentric

    exscentric
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    Not trying to open a closed thread nor to argue, but some things were left unanswered below.

    Shiloh and TomVols

    Sorry to have touched a nerve, not intended. Maybe a new thread rather than interjecting this into the other one would have been wiser. :tear: I was not attacking anyone in my mind, sorry I was in yours. However the question I ask still remains, are we training men properly in the schools to face what is out there today?

    Shiloh: As to my being foolish ["I think it's foolish to make the statement, "With God as your director, as your supporter, as your strength, as your all in all, how does this happen?""] - maybe I am a fool but in light of the God of Israel wiping out city after city before the Israelites being the same God as we serve today - let us consider. If we have the same God on our side why would we be suffering as you state. There must be a reason and I thought it worthwhile to explore the question. If you think it foolish so be it - don't discuss it.

    TomVols:

    "You obviously have never had to go through what far too many men of God have had to go through unnecessarily."

    You may assume too much, but since I don't know how much/what "too many men of God have had to go through" means, I can't know for sure.

    "What you're essentially saying is "Shouldn't these men of God be big enough to handle something that God disapproves of and is foreign to His Word?"

    The smallness/greatness of men was not the thought, but the largeness of the God they serve. Seems to me that men that are properly prepared could either handle the situations that Christians make or have wisdom to move on.

    I thought I was asking a question as to whether men ought to be better prepared for the perils of today's church. If better prepared might they come out of situations in better shape.

    "Would you say the same to a woman who is being abused by her husband? A husband whose wife is having an affair?""

    Nope, I would not look to oranges if I wanted to drink apple juice, though both situations have an out - leave if it is too bad is the idea. In the matter of women, I know there is a mental mind set that tends to keep them in the abusive relationship, but have not read anything on that for pastors - if you have info I'd love to read it. Could well be. Likening a pastor facing great difficulties in a church to a woman that is being bounced of the walls might not be the best comparison.

    "Is God greater than sinners? Yes. Is God to tolerate sin? No. Are we to sit idly by while God's church flagrantly disobeys him? I believe not. What do you think?"

    I think you are right on in this section. Not sure how that relates to the question at hand - abused pastors. If they were standing for God and the Word and were abused for it, then either wait till change comes or leave.

    My point was that many young pastors go out to conquer the world but don't realize they need to overcome the church first some times. We teach them of doctrine, of the isms, of how to do things right but do we properly prepare them to understand that in many churches the church will be the enemy until the church comes under the word and submits to God.

    Not to worry he is slithering off back to the computer section where he belongs :thumbs:
     
  2. Shiloh

    Shiloh
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    I don't think your questions are out of line if they are sincere. First of all this is an area for pastors to discuss things. I am not much of a fellow to write much on the computer as you can see from the amount of times I have posted. However I am a pastor and have been one for a lot of years. I have seen and heard a lot of things about men of God that really boil my blood. Let me give you some examples without naming any names.

    1. I was informed just last week of a church that needs a pastor. My first question was, why did the pastor leave? Answer. I don't know but I do know the bills are getting paid now on time. My reply, oh was it your pastors responsibility to pay church bills. You were there why didn't you pay the bills?

    2. Pastor living in the church basement with a wife and 6 kids. Was told by one man, It was time for him to go! Oh this man was also the treasurer!

    3. Preacher away preaching a revival, when he came back the locks had been changed on the church doors and he found a note stating he was through here.

    4. Director of a Bible camp fired the assistant director and when the board objected he fired them and put a warrent out for their arrest if they ever come back on the grounds. This was 10 days before Christmas and the assistant directors wife was 8 months pregnant. We put this family in our church until we found a place for them.

    I could go on for a long time but let me ask you a question. How does a wife handle this? You want to know why some preachers kids turn away from the Lord? This is real stuff I wrote about. I am not saying the preacher is never at fault but there is a right way and a wrong way to handle everything.
     
  3. TomVols

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    Excentric,
    Saying that seminaries could do a better job of preparing men for ministry is saying something I'll agree with. However, they are not poorly prepared. What can prepare you for churches hiring people to go through your parsonage? Threatening the life of your children if you don't resign? Pulling a moving van up to your door and giving you 24 hours to be out of the home? Hiring people to claim you sexually assaulted them?

    There are a lot of shoddy preachers (and churches) that do not believe in the sovereignty of God as they should. However, that doesn't cause or keep a church from undercutting its pastors or some pastors from undercutting churches. That's why I drew the parallels I did. One's belief in the sovereignty of God is not a magic wand that will keep others from hurting you. Therefore, your assertion is without merit, IMHO.
     
  4. exscentric

    exscentric
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    Shiloh: "I don't think your questions are out of line if they are sincere."

    Since you didn't deal with the question raised I take it that you have considered it in-sincere which is your privilage.

    I could tell you horror stories too but that may or may not relate to what I was getting at which you seem not to get.

    "First of all this is an area for pastors to discuss things." Uhhhh properly reprimanded - thought tired and retired ones were allowed. bye :wavey:

    TomVols: "One's belief in the sovereignty of God is not a magic wand that will keep others from hurting you. Therefore, your assertion is without merit, IMHO."

    Not sure what assertion you have discarded nor do I know how the "sovereignty of God" got into this but it makes for another good discussion relating to pastoral/congregation relations along this line.

    "Saying that seminaries could do a better job of preparing men for ministry is saying something I'll agree with. However, they are not poorly prepared." Humm, I was speaking specifically of this area of being ready for severe problems, and not preparation in other areas which I'd guess many to most are well prepared.

    "What can prepare you for churches hiring people to go through your parsonage? Threatening the life of your children if you don't resign? Pulling a moving van up to your door and giving you 24 hours to be out of the home? Hiring people to claim you sexually assaulted them?"

    Maybe a class that speaks to such terrible things to allow young men to know that Christians may not be all they really seem. Don't know. Maybe we should all get together and make a list of discussion topics for some professors to consider :laugh:

    I gathered topical info for such a class 35 years ago but the topics ran along the lines of how do you deal with a deacon that doesn't want to show up on time or other now rather trivial items. Our world changes and men need to have a realistic look at what they MAY be going into.
     
  5. Disgruntled UK Baptist

    Disgruntled UK Baptist
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    EEEEK!!! Wasn't there someone on this part of the board who said that Baptist polity is NOT the deacons ruling the place? It doesn't exactly sound like the PASTOR is doing much ruling in these cases!!

    D.
     
  6. TomVols

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    You need to read my post more carefully - and your own. I don't believe your assertion (that pastors are ill equipped by seminaries to deal with dragons in the church and that this is indicative of a faulty view of the greatness of God) holds much water in my view. You brought up the sovereignty of God when you brought up his power, greatness, and the minister's view of such and same. You wrote in the OP to this thread:
    You also wrote:
    Perhaps.
    I'll repeat: I believe seminaries can always improve, but I know I had very practical training regarding these issues in Bible college and seminary. Going through childbirthing classes is different from labor pains. Studying and hearing about what church members can do to you is one thing. Having them do it to you is altogether different. You seem to argue that seminaries can make a class that would keep this from happening. That's like saying pre-marital counseling will guarantee that a husband will never mistreat his spouse.
    This should all be apparent before a minister ever darkens the door of a Bible College or seminary. It is reinforced, or was in my experience.
    Again, it can take on a very different feel when it actually happens to you. There's something about playing with live ammo that's just different.
     
  7. j_barner2000

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    I can speak to these issues.

    People are people, which is to say we have inherited the issue of sin from Adam.

    Christ will change us, but as Paul lamented in Romans, Oh wretched man that I am....

    I began seminary classes after God started me in ministry. I was mentored and the relationship has continued after 2 + years in ministry.

    New pastors need to seek an experienced man to mentor them and help them through difficult times, when Satan is in attack mode and has their coordinates. Satan is looking to use whatever tools he can to chew up anyone who is led by, and on fire for our Lord.

    What we need to be about is praying for our congregations, pastors, and other churches. But most of all, us pastors need to be teaching, exhorting, and modeling a lifestyle of submission to our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

    Remember Romans 8:28 applies in situations that are painful or pleasant. His strength is sufficient.:godisgood: :1_grouphug:
     

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