1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

"just" calvinist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by nodak, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When did you begin referring to yourselves as "reformed baptist" or "grace baptist"? In America, "Reformed Baptists" were a Canadian Arminian group that merged into the Wesleyan Church in the 1960s. Ernest Reisinger's new Presbyterian-Baptist hybrid movement then began using that designation.
     
  3. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    And therein lies the tale, right?

    I actually do enjoy our repartie and like to examine other views as I grow in grace. I probably oughtn't argue as much as I do because there is plenty of other stuff I need to discover as I try to "pile up" the "gold, silver, and precious stones" for my "mansion." I really believe we will lay all our "wisdom" before Christ at the Bema and find out then whether it is "flamable" or whether He was able to use it to build New Jerusalem! :jesus:

    skypair
     
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're very spiritually discerning, nodak. LS is, I believe, an offshoot of Calvinism. And I can understand John Mac's thrust. But because he expects "works," many will believe it is easy to identify those who are saved. It, to me, kinda follows the mentality of the Masons. You don't ever have to tell someone you are a "Christian/Mason." They know by a Mason's behavior and ask them to "give an answer for the hope..." That might ever be the way to "rope" someone into salvation, eh?

    It certainly is! "Ear hath not heard nor eye seen ... what God has prepared for those who love Him." 1Cor 2:9 But if we keep growing in the right direction, we have a sweet, sublime joy in what we do see and hear!

    skypair
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You Have No Shame

     
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. However, we do not press that upon ourselves as Johnny Mac would seem to suggest. A hypocrite can do that quite handily and then claim to be saved. It's like "applying" the 5 "tests" in 1John to yourself to decide whether you are "elect" or not. We are SO objective when we are evaluating ourselves, aren't we? :laugh: And how "objective" do you think that makes us regarding others?

    Furthermore, there is a "learning curve" to one's salvation. I studied learning curves for my Masters Degree and know that the "acknowledgement" of Christ as Lord is fairly slow at the beginning. And there are a lot of doubts on one's salvation then as well. But the curve increases exponentially as one begins to receive the truth and apply it to one's life. That has been my personal experience as well, Bob. I am sure John would agree on that count.

    Leave the "legalism" for the Galations experience. Trust an honest profession and help that person grow.

    skypair
     
  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I love you, brother! You have been on my heart as one who has integrity of spirit. You have been open to all my approaches and helping me to understand without recrimination. Sadly, I have not always met the measure of your kindness.

    I believe Paul said it best -- we ought to get beyond the "doubtful disputations" and move on to the real "main course," the "meat" of the word. :praying:

    skypair
     
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Many, if not most, members on this board see Zane Hodges and his group as teaching heresy. This goes for Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike. Webdog use to like the guy (non-Calvinist), but now knows of some heresy held by Hodges. Lou wrote a book on Hodges too, if I remember right. I cannot recommend either book, for I have not read them.
     
  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Atlantic District of the Wesleyan Church

    "The Holiness Movement and Canadian Maritime Baptists"
    Yes the latest movement to use the name Reformed Baptists (early Campbellites also were so known) are Baptists who in the late twentieth century adopted/adapted much from Presbyterianism (not just soteriology but covenant theology, elders, etc.).
    Ernest Reisinger was uniquely involved in fostering many branches of the new Reformed Baptist movement:
    Grace Baptist Church, Carlisle, Pennsylvania
    Banner of Truth Trust
    Founders Ministries

    Many pastors have been blessed by Reisinger's blueprint for turning a Baptist church Reformed. Among his "practical suggestions" are to:

    Establish spiritual credibility in the church before making your move.
    Don't tackle the whole church, first just initiate a select group of men into the doctrines of grace; they will back you up later.
    Avoid using the terms Calvinism, Reformed, etc. from the pulpit.
    Introduce a carefully screened book table.
    Stand behind old Calvinist creeds, etc, culled from your church's archives.
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know about the now-deceased Ernie. I wasn't disagreeing about his influence in the Calvinistic Reformed Baptist Movement.

    But the R-B's don't have a Presbyterian Church structure and there's no synod, with all that entails. Each congregation is independent. The denomination is really a collection of like-minded fellowships.

    I think the word Reformed may be used more than you think, even though the word Calvinism may be down-played.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sorry. Duplicate post.
     
    #52 Rippon, Jun 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which is very problematic, as pointed out by John Reisinger:

    "...some present-day Baptists (mostly Reformed Baptists) have departed from both the Bible and their Baptist forefathers. They have adopted the Presbyterian view of eldership and put the authority of the church in the hands of the eldership, thereby rejecting congregational rule. However, they have also rejected the idea of a Presbytery, or any authority, beyond the local church. They have destroyed the checks and balance established by the Presbytery. This is a hybrid view of authority of recent origin. It is really 'Baptist' Catholicism. The evils that Shepherding God's Flock is fighting are the 'good and necessary consequences' of such a mixture of contrary principles.

    Here is the problem in this hybrid system: (1) If the authority of a local church is in the eldership and not the congregation (Presbyterian eldership), and (2) if there is no authority past the local congregation (Baptist congregationalism), then (3) to whom can an appeal be made when an elder acts like a tyrant? In such a situation, the eldership is a law unto itself with no accountability to anyone but its own conscience! In such a system, if several families come to the pastor with a sincere concern and he either refuses to listen or is not convinced that they are correct, those individuals are not allowed to even talk to another person after they leave his office. To do so is to be 'guilty of rebellion against God's duly authorized leadership.' Such a system is nothing but Roman popery. There is no check and balance because the eldership is ultimately responsible to no one but itself. A tyrant can have a field day and be untouchable in such a system.

    As previously mentioned, either the Presbyterian view of authority or the Baptist view of authority will work very well. The object of this article is not to state which view is biblical or preferable. I have long believed that a combination of the two would be the best. However, a hybrid system that adopts a Presbyterian view of eldership and then denies both congregationalism and a Presbytery has, even if unknowingly, created an eldership that has all of the unchecked authority of an infallible pope. Eldership rule without a Presbytery is Roman Catholicism."
     
    #53 Jerome, Jun 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
  14. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Those are good words and I would tend to agree with you on basically all counts. It occurs to me that it is just as easy for the Lordship Salvation camp to fall into legalism as it is for the Free Grace camp to fail to recognize the fruit of the spirit as evidence of salvation and sanctification as an important part of the Christian walk.

    I must say that I also find it rather curious how a proponent of Lordship Salvation can hold to the doctrine of Eternal Security. Does it not logically follow that if I MUST show fruit in order to provide evidence for salvation that if at some point I stop bearing fruit then I may lose salvation? Or is the point exactly that this would be evidence to my never having accepted Christ as Lord?
     
  15. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0



    That sounds very odd to me, as I know the words "reformed baptist" are used in America to mean what they mean here. Just a few examples: Heritage Church in Fayetteville, Georgia, says on its web site, www.heritagerbc.org concerning the word "reformed" (which it applies to itself):
    Reformed refers to the heritage of the teachings of our Lord and His Apostles which were recaptured at the time of the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century by such men as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox, among many others. These "reformers" were given grace to see that the Word of God had been encrusted with centuries of human traditions and the gospel obscured. The saving message of the grace of God revealed in Jesus Christ in the gospel had been lost. But these men, who had their own souls reborn by the power of the gospel of free grace, preached from the pulpits of Europe with tremendous power and blessing by the Holy Spirit and whole nations were changed. The key ideas of the Reformation were captured at that time in five Latin slogans:
    • SOLA SCRIPTURA - The scripture alone is our final authority in every area of life, because it is the Word of God;
    • SOLA CHRISTI - Christ alone, in his perfect life and atoning death in the sinner's place, is the basis for our acceptance by God;
    • SOLA GRATIA - The grace of God alone in Christ, not works of human merit or effort, is how God saves sinners;
    • SOLA FIDE - Faith alone is the means by which sinners receive or appropriate this grace of God; and
    SOLI DEO GLORIA - To God alone be the glory for saving sinners and for everything else in this life and the life to come, eternal.





    Tampa Reformed Baptist Church in Florida, http://tampareformedbaptistchurch.com ; Reformed Baptist Church of Topeka, http://reformingworship.org/main/common/home/ and many more American baptist churches that consider themselves "Reformed" (whether or not that word appears in the church name) are listed at the "Reformed Reader" church directory page: http://www.reformedreader.org/rbchurches.htm Incidentally, if you click on "Canada" there, you will find a number of Canadian Reformed Baptist churches that are nothing to do with Wesleyanism or Arminianis.

    There is an evangelical sermon by Pastor Al Martin (American), at: http://reformedcovenanter.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/repent-or-perish-by-pastor-albert-n-martin/ where the "blurb" says: "Here is a short Evangelistic sermon by the Reformed Baptist minister Al Martin. If you have ever heard Al Martin preach (I have, on audio cassette) you cannot possibly imagine that he is Arminian!

    I could give similar examples of the use of the phrace "Grace Baptist" in America.

    I have never heard Ernest Reisinger's stance as being a "Presbyterian-Baptist hybrid".

    I'm confused. (Yes, I know, it doesn't take much to confuse me! :) )
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, I think he confuses "sanctification" with "justification" but I won't split hairs on that issue. Preach on, nodak!

    FWIW, "libertarian freedom" would be the topic of Hodges (from what I have read about it in John Frame's book).

    As with me a cigarettes 45 years ago! I couldn't afford to wait until I quit. And furthermore, I would not have had the power on my own to do so without Christ. This is a very important point because when I did quit 13 years later, the Spirit was working with my all the way through the rather traumatic experience that accompanied it.

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #57 skypair, Jun 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2008
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    Salvation

    Salvation is for all men because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so salvation is for all men and we are the messenger. It is very biblical. But to those who lean on thier own understanding.

    Praise be to Jesus.

    Nothing can seperate a believer but we can walk away from our salvation only those who are in Christ are the elect. Period.

    The young rich ruler was chosen, elected to salvation and walked away.
     
    #58 psalms109:31, Jun 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2008
  19. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow! And these guys wonder why Baptist churches might want to steer clear of Calvinist preachers and leaders! :tonofbricks: No "conspiracy theory" here! This is a well choreographed "action plan!"

    Thanks for thw warning, Jerome.

    skypair
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
Loading...