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Just what must I do to be saved?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Yelsew2, Feb 11, 2004.

  1. cdg

    cdg New Member

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    Yelsew2,
    I apologize if you inferred that I was directly saying you were lost. I dont know if your saved or lost. God knows but I do not. But why you do not use Scripture is still odd to me. The only true defence you can have for your beliefs is Scripure. You can give me ideas and concepts all day and without Scripture it means nothing. I think we both have made our points repeatedly. I think we should end our discussion. Maybe we will take it up later or will discuss something else later on another post. Either way, I give you the last word. If you say anything that I think really needs to be answered, I will just pm you. Thanks for the interesting coversation.

    Bye.
     
  2. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    cdg,
    Open conversation is in order on a BBS such as this. PMs are nice, but open dialog is much better.

    You and I use different translations of the same source documents, the original language and early translation manuscripts. Both versions KJV and NJB convey the same stories with the same meanings. There is no law that says the King James is the only translation authorized by God. King James was not God.

    The reason I post as I do, is that the scriptures in their original form did not have verse divisions. Adding verse divisions was a human effort some length of time after the original language texts hit the book stores in 'papyrus-back' version.

    So every time I need good understanding of what is being said, I copy and paste the subject text into a word processor and remove all the verse numbers, then go back through the text and determine what the main thoughts are and divide those thoughts in to paragraphs. For example, wanting to know what John 3:16 is all about. I began with the texts that starts out "then one evening, Nicodemus a prominant teacher in the land, came to Jesus". I read it through to where the thrust of the text changes, such as verse 22 where it says later Jesus and the disciples were at such and such a place baptising believers. Well that is obviously a whole new story. so then I go back to the beginning with Nicodemus and read to find the major thoughts, and divide them in to paragraphs so that the text flows in the natural way that we human beings speak. Otherwise we would all sound like Victor Borge and his famous annunciation of the punctuation marks.

    Once the dividing is done, I read through the text several times to make sure that I am understanding it correctly. Yes, it even works with the King James language translation. Give it a try.

    Before you post a scripture for the purpose of proving a point, be sure that what you are trying to prove is supported by the text you post. If not, then don't post it. Go back and re read it in its context. I can assure you that if you don't do that you will be shot down.

    Yes, scripture defends itself! No doubt about it. But our interpretations leave a lot to be desired, because all too often we are satisfied with posting only that phrase that best suits our argument, without taking the context in which that phrase is found into consideration.

    So, cdg if you are not able to post your opinion or your belief on any topic in the public forum, what good does it do to PM someone? Public is better!
     
  3. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    What must one do to be saved?

    listen to Saul as he gives us the clue....

    Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
    Act 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

    notice the abdication of freewill?
    notice the abdication of self righteousness?


    or reading through the bible...

    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    Phi 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    notice the title. master, lord. to be saved we are chosen of the father, and son and are led not by OUR choice. Not by our so called or so imagined freewill. We do not follow by force.

    we are chosen to follow a lord.
    and that is what the world is to see.

    and if thats not enough bitter taste to mans carnal stomach..

    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    In the Flesh???..In Our flesh!!

    1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
    1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
    1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    The witness of the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ is "Within us".
    This is to be confess by those saved.
    This is the witness of God to man.
    This is the Holy spirit witnessing from within man that they are also sons of God.

    This is the witness of the Holy Spirit that God dwells in man "within" the "spirit of Jesus",
    that is given to man as a free gift.

    Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
     
  4. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    What does it mean to prevail?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. John Owen

    John Owen New Member

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    yelsew, God gives faith:

    Rom 12:3 ESV For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
     
  6. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    When used with Grace, God's Grace, prevail means that Grace is God's dominant behavioral attribute regarding His behaviour toward His creation.

    The only form of Grace that can be considered to be a gift to man is that God withholds his wrath or Judgment from man thus giving man latitude in which to squirm until man submits to God!
     
  7. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Assignment and Gift are two separate things.

    "Assignment" implies requirement or obedience to a command, whereas "Gift" has no such implication but is a token of how one regards another. Faith is never a gift, but is, rather, an obedient response!
     
  8. John Owen

    John Owen New Member

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    "According to Romans 12:3, God gives varying measures of faith to his people. Paul says that we ought "to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith" (emphasis added). In the context, this is not a limited reference to the unique spiritual gift of faith which only some believers have (1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. (emphasis added). "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith. This is the faith with which we receive and use our varying gifts. It is the ordinary daily trust of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20) by which we live and minister.

    In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think." His final remedy for this pride is to say that, not only are our spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiveing gifts is also a gift?

    That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis added). Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, so that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith.

    Paul knew that the abundant grace of God was the source of his own faith. He said in 1 Timothy 1:13-14, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; but the grace of our Lord overflowed [for me] with the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (author's translation emphasis added). He was an unbeliever, But then grace overflowed to him with faith.

    So he knew this was the case with every other believer too. He said to the Philippians, "To you it has been given for Christ's sake, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake." (Philippians 1:29, emphasis added). This is why he thanked God and not human resourcefulness for the faith he saw in his churches: "We ought always to give thanks to God for you, bretheren, as is fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged" (2 Thessalonians 1:3, emphasis added). We thanks God for the enlargement of faith because "God has allotted to each [his own] measure of faith" (Romans 12:3, emphasis added).

    This truth has profound impact on how we pray. Jesus gives us the example in Luke 22:31-32. Before Peter denies him three times, Jesus says to him, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, that you faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" (emphasis added). Jesus prays for Peter's faith to be sustained even through sin, because he knows that God is the one who sustains faith.

    So we should pray for ourselves and others in this way. Thus the man with the epilectic boy cried out, "I do believe; help my unbelief" (Mark 9:24, emphasis added). This is a good prayer. It acknowledges that without God we cannot believe as we ought to believe. Similarly the apostles pray to Jesus, "Increase our faith!" (Luke 17:5). They pray this way because Jesus is the one who can do that.

    This teaching about faith being a gift of God raises many questions. God has answers for all of them, even if we don't. Let us seek to put the teaching into practical biblical use, namely the humbling of our pride and the stimulation of our prayers. In other words, let us pray daily: "O Lord, thank you for my faith. Sustain it, Strengthen it. Deepen it. Don't let it fail. Make it the power of my life, so that in everything I do you get the glory as the great Giver. AMEN.

    Believing (God gives faith to people in varying measures) should have to good effects of humility in ministry and prayer for sustaining grace. But viewing faith as a gift is easily perverted into passivity. The danger is that we will become passive and say, "Well, if I am to do my ministry by faith, and faith is a work of God's grace, then there is nothing for me to do. I will just stay at home and watch TV." Now that is an unbiblical and irrational response to the teaching of Romans 12:3.

    We know it is unbiblical because right there in the text the whole point of Romans 12:6-8 is to exhort Christians in just the opposite way, namely, to do something. "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercize them accordingly; if prophesy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." (emphasis added). In other words, exercize your gift. Don't let it lie dormant. Take hold of it by faith and use it.

    Resist passivity and look to God and say: "Lord I know that you have given me a gift for some kind of ministry. I am tired and I am anxious that I will not do a good job. But, Lord, I trust you, not me and my gift. I trust your enabling grace, In fact, I trust you even to help me trust you because you said that faith is your gift. And I go to my ministry (say my small group leadership) tonight in the strength that you supply so that in everything you may get the glory." That's the point of 1 Peter 4:11, RSV (emphasis added), "Whoever renders service, [let him do so] as one who renders it by the strength which God supplies; in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ." The gift of faith doesn't replace service, it trusts in power to do service.

    We also know that passivity is unbiblical because of Paul's own testimony in 1 Corinthians 15:10, "By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me." He labored more than all of them! That is not passivity! But look at the conviction beneath it: "Nevertheless it was not I, but the grace of God with me."

    The great words, "Not I, but grace" are not energy- destroying words, but energy producing words. Listen to Paul again from Colossians 1:28-29, "We proclaim [Christ], admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which works mightily within me" (emphasis aded). Paul labors, Paul strives. But it is the mightly power of Christ that works in him, enabling him.

    The point is this: God does not will instead of our willing; he wills in and through our willing. God does not work instead of our working, but through our working. God does not energize instead of our having energy; He energizes our energy. Therefore it is unbiblical and irrational to say that because the grace of God produces an active trust in God, we don't need to exert an active trust in God.

    At the end of your life, after decades of loving ministry, however God uses you to stir up the obedience of faith in others, what are you going to say about the grace of God and your lifelong labors? Are you going to boast? No. You are going to use the words of Paul in Romans 15:18, "For I will not presume to speak of anything accept what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles. You will say something like a paraphrase of 1 corinthians 4:7, "What did I have that I did not receive? If then I received it, why should I boast as if it were not a gift.?"

    The Lord gives spiritual gifts to every Christain, including the faith to use them. Let us pray that he will measure out to us mightly measures of faith. find your gift. Embrace it by faith. Use it in the strength God supplies so that God will get the glory and you (and those you love) will get the joy." John Piper

    Ahhh, now thats good, good food, solid meat, great teaching, giving proper respect to the whole counsel of God.....
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    But Yelsew, submitting to God is accomplished because of the prevailing of God.

    Your definition provided even shows that to be a superiority of God over the unbeliever's nature.

    What does 'conquer' mean? Would this violate the 'free-will' of the subject then conquered?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Prevailing Grace, yes indeed, but knowledge that comes from hearing the Word of God is what brings out in the man the faith that causes the man to submit to God. Otherwise man continues to resist God even unto the death of the flesh. Those who do resist find themselves being judged as unbelievers (John 3:18). They have condemned themselves by unbelief. Thus it is they are thrown into the lake of fire.
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    How do those dead in trespasses and sin possess this knowledge? It is only because they are first regenerated. Then hearing the gospel they are able to have faith.

    You said this earlier, that one must be a believer first. This is what is meant by that.

    Go back to Rom. 10.14, where does it say these do not believe God is true? We are told they cannot call upon him in whom they have not heard, not that they cannot believe God is true. Men are commanded everywhere to repent of their sins and to trust in Jesus. There is no movement from the sinful creature to accomplish this task, only a realization of those who have been regenerated this gospel message you and I tell them of is true.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Why can't you understand that one must believe a fact before one can have faith in that fact? That is simply the way that God made man!
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Why can't you understand that you are making an argument in favor of regeneration prior to faith in this case?

    What do you believe? One time you argue against anything but faith, then you claim those with faith must first believe.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    What is FAITH if it is not sustained belief?
     
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Yelsew,
    I am not arguing that faith does not persevere. I simply stated that you seem to be in the center attempting to argue in favor of both sides.

    If you believe a person is a believer prior to possessing faith, I call this regeneration. Perhaps our greatest misunderstanding comes from our individual use of language. This is all I am saying.

    I discuss this with you on one thread and you state what I take to be your belief as that faith is what regenerates.

    But on another thread you state a person must be a believer prior to possessing or exhibiting faith.

    I am not trying to belittle you in any way, just trying to understand what you mean by these statements. In my understanding they appear to be contradictory.

    If they are not, then explain why. If they are, choose one or the other and stand there.

    Which is it? Regeneration (belief) resulting in faith, or Faith resulting in belief and regeneration.

    I believe Regeneration (belief) results in faith and that faith is in Christ Jesus.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Belief is faith begun--Faith is belief sustained.

    When one is persuaded that what comes into the mind's processing center is worth believing that is the beginning of faith. The process is that of persuasion. There is a point when one is persuaded, that point is belief, then while that belief is sustained it is looked at as faith. Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God.
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Who wrote this 100 page booklet? Why isn't the word of God sufficient to provide this tremendous insight into things HOLY? Why?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Who wrote this 100 page booklet? Why isn't the word of God sufficient to provide this tremendous insight into things HOLY? Why?

    Bro. Dallas
    </font>[/QUOTE]The book is titled "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY" by A. W. Tozer. It does not negate or otherwise displace God's Holy Word, but instead helps one to better understand this most magnificent God of all there is. I trust that you'll not look at the book as a critic because if you do, you'll be looking at ways to refute what it says instead of understanding Tozer's motivation for writing it.
     
  19. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yelsew, Let's stop denying the truth where we find it simply because it disagrees with us. Tell me, why is the Holy Spirit not able to lead us into all truth? I know it is a blessing to read the thoughts of great men regarding the doctrines of scripture. Why do you suppose Paul said to the church that after his departure there would be ravenous wolves come among them and they even were there already even as he told them?

    I do not know this Tozer, but I would say were he writing this book from my perspective, you would deny it until the last breath you drawed expired from your body. So, why place so much confidence in it, recognize it as the work of a man, regardless of the position he stands in. In this way, you can not be clouded in your view of Scripture.

    I tell you this because you regard me as a Calvinist, I would be in your view, but were Calvinist to hear me preach, he would gather the kindling and strike the first match I believe.

    So, don't confuse what I write as placing me or any other in a defensive position of Calvin. Many are here who are Calvinists, some are here who have never read Calvin, some who have read very little and some who have read but find disagreement with him in light of what they hold by conviction from scripture.

    I don't care what you read. It only saddens me to hear someone who is not inspired as the apostles be lifted up to a position that they probably weren't seeking after to start with, I don't know.

    what I mean is don't be drawn to the writings of men simply because the paper they have worked with could not move and prevent their recording the words they have on it.

    I only want to know why your could not receive this tremendous insight from the simple word of God. That is all, otherwise, read whatever you wish.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  20. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    Frogman,
    I give you Chapter 1 of Knowledge of the Holy, by A. W. Tozer.
     
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