Just "WHO" does Christ save?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I think we have discussed this before but John Owen proposes 3 possible scenarios regarding the EXTENT of atonement:

    1. Jesus died for the sins of ALL People.

    2. Jesus died for the sins of some people.

    3. Jesus died for "some sins" of all people.

    Pick one and please explain your selection.
     
  2. righteousdude2

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    I Have No Reason Not to Believe...

    ...Revelations 22:17 - "The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need [a]of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost."

    Also: John 6:35 - "Jesus replied, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will...'"

    And: Acts 2:14-21 "That's when Peter stood up and, backed by the other eleven, spoke out with bold urgency: "Fellow Jews, all of you who are visiting Jerusalem, listen carefully and get this story straight. These people aren't drunk as some of you suspect. They haven't had time to get drunk—it's only nine o'clock in the morning. This is what the prophet Joel announced would happen: "In the Last Days," God says, "I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters; Your young men will see visions, your old men dream dreams. When the time comes, I'll pour out my Spirit On those who serve me, men and women both, and they'll prophesy. I'll set wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and billowing smoke, the sun turning black and the moon blood-red, Before the Day of the Lord arrives, the Day tremendous and marvelous; And whoever calls out for help to me, God, will be saved."

    He saves....whosoever will come to Him, in faith, will to repent, and follow Him!
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    so your answer is 1, 2 or 3? Simple question.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I dont want to put words in your mouth but since not all are going to come then I believe your answer is # 2 ....Jesus died for the Sins of Some people. Question then is, why dont they all come?
     
  5. HAMel

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    Numero uno. He died for all who will....
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    That's not in line with numero uno. Sounds more like numero dos.
     
  7. HAMel

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    That's not in line with numero uno. Sounds more like numero dos.

    Well, kinda seems to me that He died for all..., but not all will accept. If one who was not otherwise going to accept..., does, then he's included under the all? :tonofbricks: Numero uno.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    His death was a perfect death for all that were sanctified as far as actual payment of sins takes place




    no more...no less:thumbs:
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    Did Jesus die for everyone? My Calvinist friends say no.

    This is a common question regarding Reformed Theology and is known as limited atonement. Reformed theology, also known as Calvinism, teaches that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect and that He did not die for the sins of everyone who ever lived. This teaching is held by the Reformed and Presbyterian Churches as well as some Baptist ones. It is controversial in that there is debate regarding its validity from scripture. Nevertheless, we must understand that believing or not believing in limited atonement has no bearing on whether or not someone is a Christian or not. The issue is denominational; that is, it is a perspective held by some Christian churches but not others.

    Nevertheless, is limited atonement biblical? The reader will have to decide. To help in making that decision, the following arguments for and against it are offered.

    For Limited Atonement

    If Jesus actually died for the sins of everyone who ever lived, then why does anyone go to hell? This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell. The counter argument is that people must believe to be saved. The answer to this is that even disbelief is a sin that has been paid for; therefore, no one should go to hell. But, since people do go to hell, it is logical to believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the Christians. The Reformed theologians would say that though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not intended for all.

    Scriptures used to support limited atonement are as follows:

    Jesus died for 'many.'
    Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
    Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
    John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
    Matt. 25:32-33, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."
    Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
    John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
    The Church was purchased by Christ, not all people.
    Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
    Eph. 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless."
    Prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
    Isaiah 53:12, "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."
    Against Limited Atonement

    The Bible says that Jesus died for all; therefore, Jesus died for all. God so loved the world, not just the Christian, that He died for everyone and it is up to the person to accept or reject Jesus. If he rejects Jesus, then the atonement is not applied to the person and he will go to hell. But, Jesus' sacrifice was not only sufficient for all, but intended for all.

    Scriptures used to support an unlimited atonement are as follows:

    Jesus died for everyone
    John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
    John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
    1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
    1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
    1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."
    Conclusion

    There are points and counter-points related to this topic. Brilliant theologians reside on both sides of the issue. But, whether or not you believe in limited atonement, you must understand that those who do and those who don't are still Christians (provided they acknowledge and trust in the true God and Christ). We need to be tolerant of those with whom we disagree on doctrines that do not affect our salvation. So, whichever side you fall on as a Christian, be gracious to those who don't believe as you do. Remember, we have far more in common in Christ, than we have differences.

    Appreciate CARM's honest intellectual balance here.

    http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/did-jesus-die-everyone-my-calvinist-friends-say-no
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    Number 2.

    I'll let Spurgeon make my argument:
     
  11. jbh28

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    Christ's death on the cross is the "only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world."

    Also, Christ's death on the cross is efficient only for believers.

    To me, it depends on what you mean "died for." Christ died to save believers. It was sufficient for all(infinite worth) but efficient only for believers(elect).
     
  12. Berean

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    Christ died for all those who are called according to his purpose.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    :thumbs::applause::applause::thumbs:
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    :thumbs::applause:
    :applause::thumbs:
     
  15. Luke2427

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    Exactly.
    _____
     
  16. convicted1

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    Correction, It can't be sufficient if it's not intended for them.
     
  17. Luke2427

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    That's not true.

    My chickens are laying eggs very well right now.

    I have eggs sufficient to feed five families.

    But I will feed only one. I only intend to feed my family with them.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Then again this begs the question, if Christ died for all, then why are only some saved ? Would The Calvinist have to conclude its because of unbelief that some arent saved?
     
    #18 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2012
  19. Luke2427

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    To whom is this addressed?
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    :BangHead:
    Didnt Christ die to atone for the sin of unbelief?
     

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