Justice and fairness

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Crabtownboy, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
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    In another thread Salty introduced an interesting topic, i.e. justice and fairness.

    Can one group be given fairness without another group being treated unfairly?



    Is fairness a corporate decision or an individual decision?

    Is it possible to have fairness for all or must it be that when there is fairness for some there is unfairness for others?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    The question actually teeters on a communistic ideology. Every one should have and be treated the same.
    However in any society that is governed by the standards of God there should be concessions made to try and offset at least some of the difficulties that are dealt to others and this comes at the expense of another. It is not about being fair. It is about being gracious.
    However as in any effort to offer another some relief, when the government gets involved it is usually a botched attempt with enormous waste. This all being said I do believe that when possible certain conveniences should be made for others who are struggling, such as special parking places, but I do not believe that those conveniences should be absolute, such as special buses for bicycles or wheel chairs.
     
  3. Salty

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    For Massachusetts - Is this justice? A women given a $300 ticket for handicap parking - but a fire hydrant would only have been $25.
    Sounds like political correctness to me

    Fla disabled man receives $250 ticket

    Sounds like the officer has a persona vendetta against handicap parking violations

    No sign posted - only painted on ground

    A pre-written ticket - give me a break - esp due to the circumstances.

    From New Mexico ( source not cited)

    Blind man given disability plates
    Disable American Veteran plates not sufficient for disabled parking

    A man parked just before "the plane" of the line and received a $300 ticket - because other were parking illegally over the non-handicap lines.
    He could fight his ticket but it would be $250 in court costs whether you win or loose.
    I have the link - but will not post it due to the extreme language used.

    Pregeant Women in Texas can receive a Temp permit

    Family members w/o disability receive ticket

    suppose I was going to the store to pick up my mom - who is handicap???


    Sometime ago I heard of this story - cannot find source on INTERNET.

    A man pulls into a convenience store at 4 am - the store is closed - all he is doing is stopping to buy a newspaper out of the honor box. He stops his vehicle - gets out - looks at the headline for a moment, puts his money, takes his paper out - turns around - and there is a cop giving him a ticket for a handicap - violation!!!
    Is this justice or just another overzealous cop?


    More than just parking

    Man lives in condominium - needs ramp for easy access - rules of homeowners association does not permit construction.

    In my taxi - I carry handicap people for the County "Call-A-Bus program.
    Lets say I had a disabled women in the back seat - (passengers not allowed in front seat due to insurance rules). Then I pick up a blind person with a German Shepard guide dog. Suppose the woman has a confirmed phobia against German shepherds. Who has more rights - the woman - who was in the vehicle first or the Blind man.
    The blind man told me he had more rights - because he is blind. ?????
    so who has more rights?


    I think that handicap parking spaces are a wonderful thing - but we have went to the extrema PC side of the issue.
    Handicap folks think they have a right - no they don't! If there are 3 spots available - and all three are being used (by those who truly need it) the fourth person coming in does not have a right to a spot - as there are no additional spots to be used. And what is that individual likely to do? Probably complain that he is more disable than one of the three legally parked.

    Well, I guess, all men are NOT created equal
     
    #3 Salty, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2011
  4. freeatlast

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    Salty,
    this is going to be difficult for you to understand but here goes anyway. The answer to those tickets is don't break the law, not what someone else is fined for something else.
     
  5. Crabtownboy

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    Salty, thanks for the reply. However, I'd rather not get bogged down in individual cases. Rather I want to explore the philosophy of fairness and justice. I believe they are linked, but perhaps we should have two threads, one on fairness and the other on justice. I am trying to carefully think about this topic and it will take some time ... and one question will lead to another.

    So, lets' begin with the first question:

    Can there ever be fairness for everyone? or is it always the case that what is fair for one person or group of people will result in unfairness for others?
     
    #5 Crabtownboy, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2011
  6. Salty

    Salty
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    First, should the man who stopped at a closed store for one moment - to buy a paper get a ticket?

    Second - are these laws actually just?
    Are the fines in line with other violations
    What $300 for handicap only $25 for fire hydrant?
    I would say a burning house...

    Third - if there is only one handicap spot left available, who should get it - the one who needs it most (then who determines), the first one to arrive, or what.....

    Fourth - so it was okay to give a ticket for the man who was permitted to park in the handicap spot ?

    In addition - many, if not all, state or Commonwealth laws state how many handicap parking spots are required. Way too often, there are too many spots, spots that consistently go unused. (on the other hand - a store sees the spots are constantly being used - then designate more)
    How about using common sense - for example I often run into the grocery store at 4 am, and not one handicap spot is being used - obviously. How about putting "times" on some of those ie handicap parking only 7am - 11 pm.

    Yes, we should follow laws - just laws. The problem is that we get so wrapped up in political correctness that common sense goes out the window.
    Another example - a convenience store - average stay is about 2-3 minutes - Therefore a (small) C-Store does NOT need handicap parking.

    I am glad there is handicap parking (no, I do not have a sticker - though I could use one in the winter time) but lets make the laws and fines reasonable.

    You seem very dogmatic on these tickets. Well, as a safety driver instructor, I see better enforcement of driving laws - ie snow on top of vehicles, tailgating, and ect. The problem is that these are not politically correct issues.

    Priorities is the key

    Salty

    PS, would you be up to take a driving assessment lesson with me?
     
    #6 Salty, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2011
  7. freeatlast

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    They would only be unjust if they were not published. My guess is that once fined they do not make the same error again.
     
  8. Salty

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    Basically, yes that is true.
    I pay taxes, someone gets a free taxi ride
    I have to stop at a stop sign, the other person is free to continue on
    I claim married on taxes, a Single man pays more
    I am bleeding, but a man who came in just after me has trouble breathing- he goes first

    Yes, sometimes what is fair for one person will result in unfairness for others.

    Now, some of those, is understandable, but the bottom line is: Who determines and what are the considerations?

    When it comes to handicap parking - for decades - there was not such thing - and folks still made it thru -
    Now, as I said before - I am glad we have such laws - but they are carried to the extreme and fines are unreasonable.
     
  9. BobinKy

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    Justice.

    Many years ago, during a discussion about some of the Greek philosophers (Socrates or Plato), I heard this definition that has always stuck with me.

    Justice - give someone their due.

    I will leave it to the theology greats of this forum to discuss whether this definition of justice fits the current discussion.



    [​IMG]

    Lady Justice (blindfolded) holding the scales of justice in one hand and a sword in the other.



    ...Bob
     
  10. mandym

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    This subject came up within the context of illegal immigration. You indicated that you thought our immigration laws are immoral and unjust. In order for something to be immoral it has to be opposed to a moral standard set up by someone in authority. Likewise for something to be unjust it would have to break some level of justice.

    Fairness, unjust, and immoral are words that often get tossed around to demonize policies and laws that do not fit in with the political agenda on the left.

    Open borders is an agenda that is believed by many to be one aspect of moving this world to a one world government. Often what you will see is that those who support open borders also highly support the current agenda of the UN. I do not intend to attack or to be mean but I personally doubt the genuineness of those who are for open borders. Such an idea does not add up. It is and should be common sense that we need to have control of our borders and that we should know who it is that is coming in.

    The word fairness is something children cry about when they do not get their way. I am always disappointed to hear adults who are constantly using the same tactic.

    But there is no doubt that supporting illegal immigration is immoral and unjust.
     
  11. abcgrad94

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    I don't know that it's possible to have true fairness or justice apart from God.

    Because we live in a sinful world, conditions are not ideal for fairness to every single party. Case in point--the US government and constitution. Under perfect circumstances, all men should be treated equal, the laws of the land upheld, etc, but unfortunately sin has corrupted what was meant to be just and fair. Even the Bible tells us "it rains on the just and the unjust."

    So, unless we live in a perfect, sinless vacuum, life won't always be fair. The laws, governments, rules, taxes, and those who enforce such, are flawed and even our best efforts won't truly measure up to God's standard of justice and fairness. We'll have to wait for that until we get to glory.
     

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