JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, May 16, 2006.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    During the time I have been here on the forum, I have made a few observations about the way that people seem to view Justification and Sanctification.

    I think that we can all agree that both Justification and Sanctification are BY FAITH. We can do nothing to "earn" or to "merit" our salvation.

    Yes the question is, will be be in Heaven if we continue on living in sin? If we are in willful rebellion against God will we be allowed into Heaven? In other words, are we FIT for the society of Heaven?

    Justification is our TICKET to Heaven but Sanctification is our FITNESS for Heaven.

    When it comes to Sanctification, I cant help but notice that many Christians will take the Law of God to it's utmost extreme and exclaim, "Well do YOU keep the Commandments?" and they will go into the minute details of sin, trying to convince others that they cannot possibly keep the Law of God so why even try?

    But I dont see God that way at all, and I dont see Sanctification that way at all. I dont view God as sitting there just waiting to pounce on us over any little violation of the Law... I view that as the attitude that the Pharisees had, sticklers for the Law. They would strain at gnats and swallow a camel.

    But in our modern times it seems like too many Christians do the same thing but only they strain the Law to the minute details and then say "ok since God and His law are so STRICT... we need to throw it out because we cant possibly keep it anyway."


    Well then how did these people keep it?

    Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


    ...and how did Job do it?

    Job:1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

    Do you really think God would command you to do things you cannot do?

    Matthew 5:44-48

    "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

    Does God tell us to do something then leave us without the means to do it?

    Cant people see God wants YOUR HEART, YOUR LOYALTY, YOUR LOVE?

    Obviously He isnt sitting there waiting for you to "mess up"... He is wanting you to reflect His character of love to the world.

    THEN you will be fit for Heaven.

    They view ME as a Legalist" because I say we must keep the commandments. But in turn I view THEM as legalists because they seem to see God as a severe tyrant who requires of them something that they cannot perform.


    ...and I see this in their future:

    Matthew 25:24,25, 30
    Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed
    And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.


    And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    God was not REALLY "a Hard Man" requiring of them something they could not perform. But since the unprofitable servant THOUGHT that God was that way then God answered and said "If you think of Me this way then WHY didnt you go ahead and do your duty? Why did you bury your talent?"

    This is the same attitude of many Christians today the REAL REASON they bury the Law and trying to keep it as God asked them to is that they view God as "a HARD MAN" who "reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed"

    They view God as requiring things of us that we cannot possibly perform. THAT I believe is the secret of their wanting to throw out the Law of God.

    Claudia

    [ May 16, 2006, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Claudia;
    I have some of my fellow ministers who use the phrase that after you are born again God puts his laws in your heart and writes them in your mind so therefore you are no longer a keeper of the law but "the law keeps us by the Holy Spirit". I know some will jump on this real quick and say "what about the blood of Christ". Well, in no way does this deminish the blood of Christ for we receive the Holy Spirit because He shed His blood. Call me what you want, but to say a saved person can also be an adultereous is an heresy doctrine and will be burned up.
     
  3. Claudia_T

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    Hi Bob,

    I added some more to my opening statement, if you want to read it.

    I believe God writes His Law in our hearts and I agree that the law keeps us by the Holy Spirit.

    Absolutely... because of the blood of Christ, because of His Grace, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and we are enabled to keep God's Law, because we love Him and the ways of the world should now be repulsive to us.

    We should become new creatures with brand new reasons for living and motivations to do God's will instead of our own.

    Claudia
     
  4. SpiritualMadMan

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    My own view is that in Heavens Throne Room I am viewed as fully Sanctified...

    Fully separated to a Holy Purpose...

    Unfortunately, I still live in a sin contaminated world and need to have my feet washed...

    John, I believe covers this in 1 John 1:8-10

    There is a further difficulty in that not only do I live in a sin contaminated world...

    I also live in a body that in the past was habituated towards sin...

    I say this because not all 'natural' apetites are towards sin or are sinful.

    Though, without a desire for God, some could easily be towards sin and through lust entice a living sacrifice to remove itself from the altar.

    So, as I view it, In God's Eyes we are in fact already a complete New Creation...

    But, while in Time, we are yet in the process of Metamorphosis...

    If we view from God's Perspective it is Completed...

    But, being 'stuck in time' we have no choice but to, some times more than others, see things from the 'now' perspective..

    A Christian will not continue to sin willfully after the flesh...

    A Christian may be overtaken in a sin...

    A Christian may have a besetting sin...

    Sin may even seduce them...

    But, they will not seek sin out, and they will not make provision for the flesh...

    Yes, I am actually trying to say something...

    But, my mind is being particularly difficult and unfruitful this morning! :D

    But, for the moment, I think I've dug this rut deep enough for one attempt... [​IMG]

    SMM
     
  5. Briguy

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    Claudia, was Job really perfect? Didn't Paul say that there were none righteous, NO NOT ONE. That would include Job therefore something else is meant by those verses. In Matthew when we are told to be perfect we are told to be perfect like God Himself is perfect. Not doing things to earn perfection, but perfection that is the same as God's. That is only acheieved one way. That way is to actually put on the robe of righteousness of God's Son, Jesus Christ. We actually become perfect in the site of God as Jesus covers us with His blood. You see we can only get into Heaven by having the same exact perfection as God has. That comes through the Son, who gives to those who believe the very righteousness of God. That is Justification before God. Our obdient acts are how we are justified before men and how men see Christ in us. Santification is a lifelong process of growing in Faith that men will see. We can't prepare ourselves for Heaven because we will always fall short. We are fully prepared because we are washed fully clean by the very blood of God's only son, Jesus. Yes, it is that simple. The gospel is a very simple thing.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Very true.

    Matt 7 "BY their fruits you SHALL know them.. not everyone who SAYS Lord and Savior to Me -- but he who DOES the will of My Father.."

    1John 2 makes the point clear "the one who SAYS He knows the Savior and yet does not WALK as HE walked is a liar".

    Some pretty harsh words - I could never have said that -

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Claudia_T

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    Brian,

    I believe that if the Bible says someone is perfect or walking in the commandments, then thats just what it means. If it says Job was perfect then thats what it means.

    Job:1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

    Job was perfect, upright and eschewed evil.

    "eschewed" --Meaning he avoided evil, had nothing to do with it, shunned it. This was something Job DID, choices Job made.


    Sanctification isnt just something men see, it is something God requires of us.

    As far as the white robe of righteousness goes, this Wedding Garment represents the unity of humanity with divinity, the “marriage”.

    God provides the Wedding Garment but some don’t choose to wear it, they come in with their common citizen dress on. When the king in the parable of the Wedding Garment comes to inspect the guests this is representative of the work of Judgment. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Eph. 5:27. The Scriptures say that the fine linen, "is the righteousness of saints." Rev. 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that THROUGH FAITH is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.

    Some Christians try to to supply the place of the heavenly garment by sewing together “fig leaves” of their own devising. But we are supposed to put on the very righteousness of Christ…. His righteousness is to become OUR righteousness.

    1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Eph:5:6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of Me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Rev. 3:18.

    Jesus "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for us to keep God’s commandments. Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine.

    "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the way we can know if someone is genuinely converted. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness.

    "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." John 1:12. It is the power of God. When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to live the life of Christ.


    When we become Christlike in character God will be able to trust us to be in Heaven. The final judgment, John describes it:

    "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Rev. 20:11, 12.

    There will be many surprised and sad people then.

    "In such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Matt. 24:44; Rev. 16:15.

    So many Christians are deceived.

    Revelation 3:
    15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    The gold tried in the fire is the character of those who come through trials purified of the earthly worldly dross of sin.

    The white raiment is that pure character of Christ that we are supposed to put on... it must be in us..

    The eyesalve is the Holy Spirit which "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" Joh n 18:8

    The Spiritual eyesight would enable professed Christians to see that they are resting easy in their sins and that they need to put on the righteousness of Christ.

    1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Isa:30:1: Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin

    Claudia
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    Here is the passage BobRyan brought up, I thought I'd post it:

    I John 2:
    3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Like I said before, there are going to be some terribly surprised people on that day.
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

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    Statements about 1 John 2:3-6 are true enough if you allow that it is mitigated when the intent of the Heart is towards God... To please Him...

    We are still human and are in the process of putting on the Mind of Christ...

    If you are saying that we have to religiously keep all The Laws, Ordinances and Commandments to be acceptable to God then I would say that niether ye nor me will make it into the Kingdom or the Heavenlies...

    This is the reason we have an Advocate with the Father, even Jesus, who intercedes for us when we are unable to be perfect...

    (Part of His Advocacy is to Forgive Us our sins)

    Are we already deteriorating into a you people can't possibly be saved becasue you don't keep all the Laws, Ordinances, and Commandments like 'we' do accusatory debate?

    If so, why have John's Promise if we are going to be Judged as not Knowing Him for each and every infraction that comes about from human frailty?

    1 John 1:8-10?

    In fact, if in fact you are applying the above passage to the majority of Board Posters, you need to also be aware that John says that if you say you have no sin you are lying and The Truth isn't in you...

    Which would mean by your own statements above... (1 John 2:3-6)

    You can't Know Him either because if you have sin you aren't keeping the commandments either...

    So, wouldn't it be better to discuss our differing views instead of playing this game of Spiritual-One-Up-Man-Ship?

    SMM
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Claudia Revelation actually says that the fine linens is the righteous acts of the saints.

    "It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

    She is to clothe herself.

    See this is where people get mixed up. They think that salvation by grace through faith makes them an automatic member of the bride when that time comes. But that couldn't be further from the truth.

    The entire church body will not make up the bride. It will only be part of the body.

    It will be those that die to self and allow the Spirit to work in them.

    Sanctification is all about works. One is found worthy or unworthy based upon their work. This has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but has everything to do with being apart of the bride. Eternity and the bride are two different subjects and should be kept separate.

    And if we allow the Spirit to work in us then God gives us credit as if those were actually our works. He truly is an AMAZING God!!
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    JJump,
    I personally can see nothing in the Scriptures that indicate that salvation and eternity are two different things.

    On this message board Im always reading things that people post where they do this. "Oh thats not anything to do with your salvation", they say. But I just do not see that at all.


    Any time you show them Bible verses about the commandments they claim its nothing to do with salvation.

    Then they also seem to say "oh thats for the Jews and not for us" in the New testament. And so thats all they have to do is say one of those two things.... to be able to excuse themselves.

    [ May 16, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    JJUmp,

    If you say the Bride has nothing to do with salvation, let me ask you this...


    The whole of Matthew chapter 25, Jesus is putting forth scenarios, all describing the same event... the same idea... just stating it in different ways.

    So you are telling me then that the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins, The parable of the talents, the sheep and the goats are all things that have nothing to do with our salvation?

    Because my Bible doesnt read that way..


    Matthew 25:
    41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    In the Wise and Foolish Virgins/Bride Parable Jesus slams the door in their faces... saying "depart from Me, I never knew you"

    How on earth can you think this has nothing to do with salvation if Jesus says He doesnt even KNOW them?
     
  13. J. Jump

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    I'm not excusing myself of anything. But eternal salvation does not have anything to do with works. Therefore the commandments can not come into play when talking about grace through faith.

    If keeping the commandments are necessary for eternal salvation then it's not by grace, but by works, meaning that you deserved it. But eternal salvation in an unmerited gift. Gifts can not be worked for.

    Now the commandments do have everything do with the salvation of the soul. That's the sanctification process. It's still salvation, but not eternal salvation. The salvation of the soul is speaking of being saved in the 1,000-year kingdom or not being saved during that period. And in order for that salvation to be realized you must be found to be a worthy servant, which means works. But if you are found unworthy it doesn't impact your eternal salvation, becuase that is a gift not by works.

    If you are truly interested in learning more about this I would be happy to PM you some great resource material that you can study through on your own. This message is straight out of the Bible, but it is a very misunderstood message, becuase the church has gotten away from this truth. And as time goes on the church will move further and further away from this truth.
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    Hebrews, chapter 6

    "4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    "5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    "6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    (Then how do you answer this)
     
  15. J. Jump

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    Claudia the parables you were just speaking of in Matthew 25 have to do with entrance into the kingdom, not entrance into eternity.

    It's unfortunate that our translations mislead folks, but that is the case. Neither the Greek nor the Hebrew languages have a word for eternity/eternal/forever/everlasting etc. The Greek word that is used aionios is from the root word aion which means age...a set period of time with a beginning and an end. Thefore it seems foolish to take an adjective of a word and have it mean something completely different that the original word.

    There is another thread in the Baptist only section that talks about people speaking Christianese. Unfortunatley Christians have been speaking a language that is unbiblical. And it has caused some grace misunderstandings in the Bible.

    People aren't interested in learning what the Bible truly says and truly means. They would rather stick with what their pastors have told them. And pastors don't really want to learn what the Bible has to say. They just want to stick with what the seminaries have taught them.

    All the while people are being led astray at the hands of man-made traditions and man-made doctrines.

    Brother Bob - as to your reference of Hebrews Chapter 6 you are using a passage that doesn't speak to salvation by grace through faith and trying to make it fit. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    Unforutnatley if you push hard enough you can make it fit, but it tears up the peg and the hole :(
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    JJump


    The goats in the parable who dont do good works and help the needy, are going to to away into everlasting punishment while the sheep go to eternal life, as it says in the passage but you say this has nothing to do with our salvation.

    Matthew 25:31-46

    would you
    want to reconsider this?

    [ May 16, 2006, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

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    If you're asking me?

    I am not sure I have a "good" answer...

    I suppose one could make the argument that the Writer of Hebrews is using hyperbole to make a point that we are totally secure in Christ.

    On the other hand it would appear to indicate at least the potential of the ability to fall from Grace...

    This "Fall away" could be what John was talking when he was speaking of a sin unto death.

    The Greek is "to Apostatize" which means to abandon ones Faith...

    Again, I don't have a clue as to why someone would do such a thing after tasting and seeing that the Lord is good...

    Now of some comfort to cessationists is that one can only come to this point after having tasted the powers of the world to come...

    So, it may be actually proper to teach this at face value among Pentecostal Arminians because they would seem to be vulnerable to it's application...

    Whereas, Calvinist Cessasionists wouldn't need to see it that way because they would _not_ be laible to the penalties? :D

    With out a specific question it's hard to know what specific point you are asking to be explained...

    SMM
     
  18. J. Jump

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    Claudia once again you have to take a look at God's Word not man's translation of God's Word. God's Word is not eternal, but aionios which does not mean eternal.

    Another thing that helps us understand is the context. The context is works so that throws out eternal salvation right off the bat, because eternal salvation is not based on man's works. Eternal salvation rests solely on the finished work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary and that's it...nothing else.
     
  19. Claudia_T

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    hmmmmmmmmmmmm
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    SMM; My point is if someone can do what has been suggested on another thread that a saved person can committ murder, adultery etc fall away and repent again. This Scripture suggests, no it tell us if we do so to renew us again is impossible.

    (If it were possible to fall!! I think the writer is telling us just how impossible it is to fall, or do such things.)
     

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