Justification in the catholic doctrine

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Dec 31, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I just read something about the council of Trent because I have heard about it before.

    This is from a text which I found on wikipedia.
    What's wrong about this? I mean isn't this the same which the bible says? The bible also says that faith without works is dead. This means that simply being passiev and only believing will not help a person. Does this mean that the catholics are right? :confused:
    I really don't see what's so wrong about these statements.
     
  2. Claudia_T

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    Catholics do good works in order to deserve salvation...

    Christians are to keep the commandments of God THROUGH the faith OF Jesus. Jesus came in the form of a man and with our sinful nature overcame all sin by faith. We are to take hold of His faith and by His faith overcome sin, keeping the commandments of God.

    and the motivation for doing this is Love for God and Love for one's neighbor. Not to try to somehow earn your way to Heaven. If you are doing it for any other reason than love then you are still as selfish as you ever were...

    Revelation 14:
    12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
     
    #2 Claudia_T, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  3. xdisciplex

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    But where do the catholics say that you have to do works to earn salvation?
    Do they explicitly say this in their doctrines because I cannot find it.
    The few sentences which I copied from wikipedia sound pretty okay to me.
     
  4. billwald

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    Try reading the Catholic Catechism if you all want to know the truth about the Catholic Religion. It is easy to read and well done. The meanings of words, unlike some protestant writings, are plain.

    Would Protestants do good works if they could be hidden from neighbor and God?
     
  5. Eliyahu

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    Catholic is wrong in that statement as they are in many other doctrines.

    It clearly contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9.
    We are saved by Grace thru faith, not of works.
    Works are the result after one is saved. If there is no works, we can doubt about the salvation of that person.

    What did the Robber at the Cross do? Did he do a good job? Did he pay the tithe very well ?

    What Epistle James is talking about the Works, is that the true Faith is combined with the Works and the Works follow the Faith immediately.
    Today there are so many people who claim themselves are saved but their lives are not changed actually. So many church go-ers claim they are born again, but their lives remain the same as the other people of this world.

    If anyone claims that Good works are still required for the Salvation, they are proving that they have not tasted the real Faith yet!
    Martin Luther was saved when he read Romans 1:17 " The Just shall live by Faith", then his life was changed and we know the fruits of his faith.
    John Wesley was saved by the same Words, and we know his fruits and works.
    Works are not the pre-requisite for Salvation, nor co-factor for Salvation, but the results and become the proofs that they are saved.
    Faith doesn't mean passive, we sometimes give up things of this world in our mind, in order to get the best heavenly thing, the Eternal Life.

    Catholic claims this type of works even for the Puragatory. Even in Purgatory, the people can get out of there when their relatives do good almsgiving, and pray for them. We are not saved by these things, but how can we rely on the good works of other human beings again?

    Even the Robber at the Cross went to Paradise along with his Lord Jesus Christ, without going to Purgatory!
    How miserable they are if they have to spend the millions of years in the Purgatory relying on the human almsgiving and prayers! Will their prayers be enough to move God?

    We simply rely on what Jesus has done for us at the Cross, which was enough Sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL, then such faith change our lives for the good works as Holy Spirit works in us.
    None of my behavior can nullify what Jesus has done at the Cross, shedding the Blood and dying the most painful death for me. Thereby I achieved the access to God, free of charge, by Grace. Thanks to Jesus Christ.

    Read Romans 3,4,5,6

    RC doctrines are full of human theories which are not the truth of God.
     
    #5 Eliyahu, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2006
  6. Amy.G

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    Your OP said it;
    We are justified by faith in the finished work of Jesus ONLY. Not faith AND works.
     
  7. Darron Steele

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    From what I understand of Catholicism, there are certain rituals that they call "sacraments." These sacraments are meant to call down God's grace. They are not merit-natured; they are petition-natured. The Catholic Christian does not believe that God views the person doing the ritual as `worthy' of God's favor. The Catholic Christian believes that s/he is asking God appropriately for God's unmerited grace.

    At Catholic functions, the Catholic Christian should understand the lack of merit for salvation every time s/he goes to confession. Those Catholics who take their faith serious spill their worst sins to the priest, who usually knows them personally. Spilling your vilest sins to someone cannot be fun. Our sins are so deep compared to the holiness of God that no one could reasonably believe s/he has any merit before God. I believe that Catholic mass is a failure to fully understand the finality of Jesus Christ's sacrifice, but mass would not have been modified from the Lord's Supper had it not been for Jesus Christ's sacrifice -- and when the Catholic goes to mass, s/he is reminded in recitations that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for us.

    Because of how American Catholic clergy teach, American Catholics typically understand that any favor they get from God is by grace, which means unmerited favor. They do not believe that they are getting themselves to Heaven; they believe that Jesus Christ is getting them to Heaven through His sacrifice on their behalf.

    They just `call on the name of the Lord' differently than other Christians do.
     
  8. Dustin

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    Official Roman Catholic doctrine of justification is an infused righteousness is given at baptism and progressivly worked out until one achieves "perfect rightousness". They say that through the sacraments the righteousness of the saints and Christ and grace are given to believers and will dissapate when the believer sins or strengthen when good works are done. In other words grace through cooperation.

    The historic Protestant view is that the believer is declared righteous by saving faith in Christ and His righteouness is imputed to thier account by that faith. This is seen as a once in time forensic declaration by God alone, rather than a progressive cooperation.

    Wikipedia is a good thing.


    Dustin
     
  9. donnA

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    First line, justification(salvation) is by faith and good works.

    Catholics do good works to earn salvation, we do good works becasue of salvation, becasue we are already saved, becasue the christian wants to serve God.
     
  10. DHK

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    This is not true either. It is very similar to the Catholic doctrine of faith + works = salvation.
    Here is what the Bible says:

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    We are justified by faith and by faith alone, as this verse teaches.
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    Catholics have doing good works to earn merit and on the other hand they have doing sacraments to somehow make you holy with no inward change. Both are wrong.

    True Christianity is accepting the merits of Christ by faith, relying on Jesus alone for salvation and by faith doing good works out of love for God. By their fruits ye shall know them. Lack of good works shows lack of genuine faith.
     
  12. DHK

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    And who are you to judge these good works? God perhaps?
    "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right."
    The verse says "God," not Claudia.
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    DHK,

    I was not judging anybody's good works and I am sorry that you think that I was. The Bible says you should do them. All over the place. It is the very reason Jesus Christ redeemed us, see the last Bible verse on this page. Thats why Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. If you call that judging, I dont know what to say to you. He said it for a reason:

    Mt:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mt:7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


    Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Eph:2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



    Claudia
     
    #13 Claudia_T, Jan 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2007
  14. DHK

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    Never are those verses on works related to salvation. We are, as Christians, created unto good works. Works follows salvation--always. They are never part of salvation, and are not needed to be saved. The thief on the cross never did a good work in his life, and yet was saved.

    You say good works are needful for salvation. Without them one cannot be saved. But who are you to judge who has done good works and who hasn't? By the way that you speak you say this person or that person doesn't do good works and therefore by your observation isn't saved.
    But only God knows the heart. You can't judge the heart. What works you can't see, perhaps others can.
    Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?
    It is fruitless for you to quote verses on good works for two reasons:
    1. They don't pertain to salvation.
    2. You are not the judge of the works that people do.
     
  15. Claudia_T

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    I am not judging anyone.
     
  16. DHK

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    So you say. And even if you don't conscientiously, you do it unknowingly.
    You tell yourself that a person cannot be saved without works. You have already made that theological construct in your mind. So when you see a person "that has no works" (according to your own judgement), you deem him as unsaved. How else could it be. But the only one that knows the heart of that person is God. This is one of the reasons that works has nothing to do with salvation. We can't judge them, and are in no position to judge them. We can only accept the testimony of a person whether or not he has trusted Christ as His Saviour. For one is saved by grace through faith, and faith alone.
     
    #16 DHK, Jan 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2007

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