Justified while Ungodly !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Rom 4:4-5

    4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    That those whom Christ died for are Justified before believing, which pleases God [Heb 11:6] is evident from the fact that God Justifieth the Ungodly ! The word Justify here is in the present tense, denoting He was or is Justifying the Ungodly, while they are or were The Ungodly. This is the same as when Paul taught that the elect were reconciled to God while yet enemies Rom 5:10 !

    Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !

    Those Christ died for, shed His Blood for are not Justified by their pleasing God, but by His Pleasing God in their behalf, for it is said of Him by the Father Matt 3:1

    And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    God Justifies the Ungodly, in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel !
     
  2. Moriah

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    Where do you get that Christ justified unbelievers? Where do you get that that pleases God? We do not get justified UNTIL we BELIEVE AND OBEY.
    Romans 5:10 is telling us that Christ died for sinners, all are sinners, sinners are enemies to God; ALL sinners are enemies to God. That is what Romans 5:10 is saying. Through Christ’s DEATH, we are reconciled to God, and how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through Jesus’ LIFE.

    Again, where do you get that this is before we believe? Why are you saying we do not have to believe in God and Jesus?
    For us to access this Grace, this reconciliation, this salvation, we must believe.

    Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

    Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
     
    #2 Moriah, Feb 14, 2012
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  3. DaChaser1

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    actually, first the Lord elects us to be in the Body of Christ, by His will, and than he enables thom whom he has chosen to be palced in Christ to have the faith needed to be able to appropiate that salvation!

    God choses us first, enables us/graces us to be enabled to palce faith in Christ, place the faith in jesus, and thus are saved!
     
  4. Moriah

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    That is not scripture. Calvinists claim we all hate God, and in this state of hate, God saves us. Again, that is NOT scripture. What you believe goes AGAINST the Word of God. Scripture SAYS we are saved when we LOVE God. John 14:23.
     
    #4 Moriah, Feb 14, 2012
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  5. DaChaser1

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    While we were yet sinners , Jesus died on the behalf of the Ungodly, in order to justify us before God!
     
  6. Moriah

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    EVERYONE is a sinner. All sinners are enemies of God. I have already explained this. You keep going in circles. Everyone is a sinner that means we need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that we can stop sinning, it does NOT mean that we cannot believe in God after learning of Him! It does NOT mean we cannot do what He says...WE CAN BELIEVE, WE CAN CONFESS OUR SINS AND BE SORRY FOR THEM. Again, because we are sinners, it does not mean we do not love God.
     
  7. DaChaser1

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    NONE of us though will come to God in and by ourselves, for our hearts are deceitfully evel/wicked, and we all prefer the darkness to the light of Christ!
     
  8. Moriah

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    No, that is NOT ALL people.

    Isaiah 64:5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    Christ died in behalf of the Elect Ungodly, And He did Justify them before God, even while they were Ungodly.

    For instance, Christ Death took away the sins of all for whom He died, God's Justice has been satisfied concerning them. That happened over 2000 yrs ago, now the elect that are born therafter, though they are born Ungodly sinners like all men are, nevertheless, because of Christ, they are Justified, So the Ungodly are Justified, those Christ died for. Isa 53:11

    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    If he beared their iniquities, then they are Justified or accounted Righteous !
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Give me a break, it means no such thing! It means that the believer who "worketh not" has no PERSONAL RIGHTEOUSNESS when he believed that could justify him before God. When he believed he was PERSONALLY "ungodly" or PERSONALLY without godliness, therefore, the righteousness by faith must be IMPUTED rather than originating from any personal or imparted righteousness.
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    bib

    Yes it does. The Elect are Justified and Reconciled to God while they are enemies / ungodly, by the Death or Blood of Christ, Rom 5:9-10 You deny this, you deny Salvation by Grace !
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    It is not a matter of denial, it is a matter of distinguishing between things that differ and dealing with matters in their proper context.

    You are habitually taking things out of a NON-TIME and NON- SPACE context where no LITERAL CONCRETE APPLICATION is possible and declaring them CONCRETE and LITERAL.

    You are habitually taking things out of TIME and SPACE context and where they are CONCRETE and LITERAL and attempting to place them into a NON-TIME and NON-SPACE context.

    Thus you are simply perverting the Word of God.

    Of course the elect are justified in a NON-TIME and NON-SPACE context according to the Purpose of God but without LITERAL CONCRETED application.

    The very fact they are called "ungodly" and "enemies" in a TIME and SPACE context proves they were not reconciled or justified in a TIME and SPACE concrete application before regeneration but were children of wrath even as others in the same TIME and SPACE concrete application.

    Therefore they were JUSTIFIED in a non-literal concrete applicational sense before generation while at the same time they were NOT JUSTIIFED in a literal concrete application sense until regeneration.

    Those who cannot discern between these two sense will only pervert the scriptures and teach false doctrine in the name of "sovereign grace" or the "doctrine of grace" and thus make the truth a lie and a mockery before those who reject the doctrine of unconditional election.
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Yes it is. God was Justifying the Ungodly, while they were Ungodly !
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    bib

    Thats a Lie. Rom 5:10

    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You THINK it is a lie because you THINK or REASON it according to your confused theology that does not discern between things that differ.

    It is like a person who presumes white is really black and as long as that person PRESUMES that lie they will call everyone else liars who rightly discern white is white not black and black is black not white. You live in your own made up theological world where you have forced things in a context of NON-TIME and NON-SPACE to be actually CONCRETE IN APPLICATION as though they were in TIME and SPACE when in fact they are not. As long as you live in your literal special world of make believe all will be liars but you.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    No it is not! I agree they were justified while they were ungodly. They were justified according to the eternal purpose of God (by eternal design) and by provision made by Christ according to His eternal purpose.

    However, in regard to their own person in time and space while they were ungodly and enemies they were not justified nor reconciled but were "children of wrath even as others" (Eph. 2:2-3). Furthermore, when they believed they were at that point NO MORE UNGODLY and NO MORE ENEMIES of God and thus NO MORE CHILDREN OF WRATH even as other still are.

    What you do not understand it is not God's Eternal Purpose for them to be justified in their own person any more than it is for them to be regenerated and glorified in their own person UNTIL IT OCCURS IN TIME AND SPACE at God's appointed time.
     
  17. savedbymercy

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    bib

    Thats Right, they were Justified and reconciled to God while they were enemies or Ungodly. Rom 5:10

    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

    were enemies is in the present tense, so , while they were being enemies, they were reconciled [past tense] to God ! You suppose to be a greek man check it out !

    Note on the presnt tense:

    The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
     
  18. DaChaser1

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    Were they still sinners BEFORE actually conservation, Born anew experience?

    Bible says yes, so were indeed enemies of God, and NOT justified until,AFTER receiving the Lord jesus, and having the election confirmed and made effective by the application effectually of the grace of God to their behalf!
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    da says

    Yes the Elect are Enemies, sinners, Ungodly, Children of wrath by Nature and on and on, BUT, that said, they were Reconciled to God, while being those things, How, not by New Birth, not by Faith, not by anything they did, but simply by the Death of God's Son ! Rom 5:10a

    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Are not all these terms (ENEMIES, children of wrath, etc.) used only by God for those the Law has a just basis to condemn? How can anyone reconciled to God still be regarded JUSTLY under such condemning legal terms unless there is a JUST basis for regarding them as such? If there is a JUST basis for regarding them as such what is that JUST basis if it is not the Law of God? If it is the Law of God that JUSTLY regards them under such condemning language then how can they be reconciled to God if the Law still considers them JUSTLY as "ENEMIES and children of wrath."

    Isn't a person reconciled to God no longer considered by God to be His "enemy" or are all enemies reconciled to God?
     

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