Justifying Works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    The Greek usage for “justify” has two primary definitions* and in all cases for all words the context determines the usage. I) to render one to be righteous; II) to show or manifest one has been rendered righteous. Since there is only One who is just, it is only He who can render one to be justified (I), and that by imputation only:

    “To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom 3:26 – render, I).

    “It is God who justifies” (Rom 8:33 – render, I).

    “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God” (Rom 4:2 – render I).

    “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” (Jam 2:24 – show, II).

    “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar” (Jam 2:21 – show II)?

    “Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way” (Jam 2:24 – show II)?

    Even the forgiveness of sins in the prior dispensation were based on faith in God. Until Christ, there could be no remission of sins but instead it was “forbearance,” passing over or overlooking the judgement and punishment of the believers in God.

    “God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed (Rom 3:25); “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Act 17:30). The “setting forth” is in reference to applying the Blood of Christ in His “propitiation” ahead of time to the OT believers, which was “shadowed” (Heb 10:1) in the sin sacrifices of the Law.


    * https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1344&t=KJV (using definitions I and II).


    - NC
     
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  2. utilyan

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    If faith or works was a requirement for mercy, Paul certainly did not qualify.


    Luke 6

    35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


    ^this is very, very, very, basic Christianity.




    I think there is something wrong when we start using scripture to "protect us" from God. When our eye is obsessed on is God going to make me suffer or not. Is God going to kill us?

    What is faith alone really when I have to check a book every other day to say......ok lord your not going to kill me today......just checking again.....had to make sure I can trust you lord.


    Something is wrong even vilifying of God. He should have been your best friend, Our Father.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    It is basic Bible 101 to understand that all unbelievers are under the wrath of God (Jn. 3:36; Lk. 13:3,6). It is not vilifying God to acknowledge that God is holy and just to exercise wrath against all unbelievers. You better find a way to escape the wrath of God or you are certainly going to experience His wrath eternally in Gehenna. Therefore, justification removes one from under just condemnation and wrath of God.

    You don't understand even the simpliest gospel truths and yet you are trying to teach others????? That is sad. You need to come to a basic understanding of the gospel for your own eternal welfare.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan
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    We don't teach bible 101, We teach God 101. Only an idiot looks for leverage against God.



    Step 1 is to love God. Not hate God.
     
    #4 utilyan, Oct 2, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  5. The Biblicist

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    Only an "idiot" would claim that sinners should not fear God's wrath.



    No, step one is "the FEAR of the Lord is THE BEGINNING of wisdom" It appears you have not taken step one.

    There is none that seeketh after God no, not one and there is none born into this world that loves God but all are born with an nature that is "enmity against God" that is, in a state of war against God (Rom. 8:7). Jesus plainly states that the lost man does not love God or can love God in his fallen state (Jn. 3:18-19).

    You don't know even the abc's of the gospel and yet you are on here trying to correct others when you don't even understand the basics.
     
  6. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    I not sure of what you're saying, since faith is the sole means salvation is "through" (Eph 2:8 - through faith). To be able to do what is commanded in Luke 6:35 or any of God's pleasures one has to be in Him, which is only through faith, unless we're not discussing the same subject.
     
  7. utilyan

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    "the FEAR of the Lord is THE BEGINNING of wisdom"

    That's absolutely true. Just like and idiot is the beginning of intelligence.

    This verse indicates the fool.
    That doesn't indicate to promote "stupid". We can get rid of that stay stupid policy.


    The awe of God is automatic. Fear however is a hatred.


    "There is none that seeketh after God no, not one and there is none born into this world that loves God but all are born with an nature that is "enmity against God" that is, in a state of war against God (Rom. 8:7). Jesus plainly states that the lost man does not love God or can love God in his fallen state (Jn. 3:18-19)."

    First Paul is speaking from the Jewish legal perspective that would damn everyone. Romans 3.
    Taken from a time where all Israel but a prophet were in the wrong.



    Matthew 12

    35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Luke 6

    45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.



    See I can actually preach the above verse and say good things come from your heart as Christ preaches.

    But your claim is in league of the Pharisees no one is righteous unless they had their supreme status. unless they marked off and called holy nothing they can do.


    What is more pathetic you can't say amen to Christ and immediately look for scripture to undermine his command.

    You start with a twisted version of Paul as foundation when it should have been the words of Jesus Christ.

    That's why ever argument you start with a TWISTED view of PAUL. I shoot first with Christ.






    Accept the word of the LORD:
    Matthew 6

    14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Jesus says how it is.... First thing you should have done is said amen. Instead you want to replace and undermine his truth with the BACKWARDS.

    You have to forgives others FIRST. Then the father will also forgive you.




    The commandment is LOVE GOD, Love neighbor.

    You are teaching FEAR/HATE GOD. That is not a commandment.


    Jesus CHRIST is our perfect example, Jesus Christ does not FEAR Jesus Christ.



    1 john 4
    18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    My oh my, keep your day job! Paul is methodically proving that NO MAN IS RIGHTEOUS by nature whether Jew or Gentile (Rom. 3:9) and so none an be justified by keeping God's law (rom. 3:19-20) for all have sinned and come short of God's righteousness (Rom. 3:21-23) which is his glory.

    Romans 8:7 is not addressing Pharisees as you claim, but is describing the natural condition or mind set of all human beings born into this world of the flesh and therefore "In the flesh" (Rom. 8:8).

    So no human is naturally born to fear God but to hate God. David and Solomon both clearly teach the wicked do not fear God but only hate God. So fear of God is not hatred of God as you claim.



    Jesus is teaching that "good" man is good and can bring forth good fruit because he has a good heart. An evil man is evil and brings forth evil things because his heart is evil. All mankind is naturally born into this world with an evil heart and thus be given a new heart by God BEFORE they can be good or do good:

    Mt. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    Mt. 7: 17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Deut. 7:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD has not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, to this day.

    Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Until God gives you a new heart by NEW BIRTH you can do nothing good in God's sight! In the sight of men you can be a good Pharisee who is white on the outside but filthy on the inside.

    My friend, the Pharisees taught your doctrine of justification by keeping he law or by works. You are only advertising your Biblical illiteracy. You need to stop writing start reading.

    .

    Now, you are taking an epistle that was written to Christians for the purpose that they can know they are saved (1 Jn. 5:13) and trying to apply it to lost and saved. First, the believer is no longer under the wrath of GOD (jn. 3:36) while the unbeliever remains under Gods' wrath (Jn. 3:17; 36).

    1 Jn. 4:18 is dealing with the child of God who no longer is under the wrath of God but is under the redemptive love of God. The "fear" in this text deals with the fear of "punishment". The love of God that is working in them due to new birth,

    1 JN 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

    Therefore, MAture children of God do not fear eternal wrath but they do fear the chastening of GOd (Heb. 12:5-10).

    You are jerking texts out of their context and applying them to what they are not applied to in their context.
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

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    Oh boy! You are the living proof that idiot is not the beginning of intelligence.
    Just do a word search on 'fear of God' or 'fear of the Lord.' It is almost always something positive (eg. Acts 9:31), and its lack something negative (eg. Romans 3:18).
     
  10. utilyan

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    The Devil fears God. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2.

    Martin I already know this. Two people can say you are on "fire" and it could mean a good thing like a winning streak or literally toast.

    I can find multiple verses with "FEAR OF THE LORD". I mentioned Awe previous post.
    Awe and reverence of God is often called Fear, But its not our common English version of fear.
    Fear is not a virtue.
    The priority is always Love.
    2 timothy 1
    7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
    God is not a terrorist.
    God is the best help any of you have against everything else, OUR FATHER EVEN.
    It is an insult to seek anything to defend you from God.

    Every evil you ever done came from fear.


    Don't alienate yourself from God.

    If God were against you, you have no chance at all there is no leverage to be found.

    We are to place our sole reliance on God rather then reliance on things to protect us from God.
     
  11. utilyan

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    "All mankind is naturally born into this world with an evil heart and thus be given a new heart by God BEFORE they can be good or do good:"

    If for a minute I believed that were true, I wouldn't waste my time explaining it to you rather I would appeal to God to fix you. Since you have the inability of doing anything good.

    Do you believe God has given me a good heart?

    I believe you have a good heart.


    Matthew 6
    14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    It doesn't say it starts with God forgiving you thus attaining the good heart.

    In fact there is no RE in REGENERATION if your heart didn't start off as a good thing capable of good.

    The fault of sin is your fault not bad or good hearts.



    This is foundational and basic Christianity.

    Matthew 7

    7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
    12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

    Jesus says Evil are capable of doing good. Even asking for the holy spirit. Luke 11: 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

    If you already have the holy spirit you wouldn't be asking for it.




    Mathew 5

    43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    People who aren't save love those who already love them. They have ability to do Good.




    There are people with mental disabilities like Tourette syndrome.

    One difference between me and you. You would hold their flaws against them.
    Because you got no problem holding someone accountable for something they have no ability or control of.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    Exactly wrong.
    If people feared God they wouldn't commit evil (Romans 3:10-18). If you feared God as you should you wouldn't misinterpret His words so outrageously. Have a good old read of Job 28 and understand it.
    No indeed. We should all fear to do so.
    All the more reason to fear Him.
    Those who fear God need not fear men. That is what this verse is about. Read Luke 12:4-5.

    You need to learn the fear of the Lord, and God promises to teach it to those who ask Him. 'Come, you children, listen to me, and I will teach you the fear of the LORD' (Psalm 34:11).
     
    #12 Martin Marprelate, Oct 11, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  13. utilyan

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    If God, Jesus Christ fears anything you have a point. Our perfect example does not fear.

    The Devil fears God. That won't fix him.

    The expression fear of the Lord has to do with awe and reverence.


    No fear is a commandment of Christ.

    John 14

    27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.





    Romans 8

    15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


    True Christians teach courage not cowardice.




    In Matthew 6 Jesus takes it a step further, to don't even worry.



    Psalm 23

    4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    and this your response to God's word????? Your opinion??????

    Think about what your question admits! Your question admits that you did not come with a good heart but a good heart must be given to you from God (deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26)
     
  15. utilyan

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    Bib these are not my beliefs, I'm just taking your teaching to its consistent end.


    I am accusing you of not having common sense.


    If the reason someone believes wrongly or rightly is because God has yet to give them a good heart. I am not going to waste my time with them, I would ask GOD, pray to God, beg GOD to fix the problem.


    When you accidentally burn the toast you fix for your daughter ,do you slap your daughter since its her toast?

    That's how your ridiculous logic works. If I want the toast fix I don't bother with her I talk to YOU.


    You say ONLY GOD can give a new heart, and you sit there yapping at folks without the "NEW HEART" as if there is something they have to do.




    "Think about what your question admits! Your question admits that you did not come with a good heart but a good heart must be given to you from God (deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26)"

    You assume my very soul and essence of who I am is not GOOD.

    The very first letter of my name GOOD HEART.


    You think you start as trash neglected by God And who's fault is it you say when you sin?

    YOU claim its GOD's FAULT, because he didn't do this or that for you.


    A DEAD BEAT FATHER Is the foundation of your theology. You assume if that's all God provides then that's all that God is.


    When I sin, IT IS MY FAULT absolutely without excuse. With every provision on God's part for me to freely NOT SIN.
    In absolute everyway when I do evil, it is MY EVIL. I have a perfect heart to avoid it, A perfect conscience to see it. I am directly responsible. When I apologize to God it is REAL. A real wrong part on MY PART.


    All I hear is excuses from you. You never take full responsibility, Its because God hasn't given me this or that.

    You never repent, and your God never forgives he always gets paid out what he is owed one way or another.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    The Bible clearly teaches that man burnt the toast or sinned "in Adam" and that is why the sin nature along with its consequence (death) is "passed" down through natural birth. So, no human is born. into this world, into this life with a good heart. Infants come into this world with a nature that is in a state of "enmity toward God, and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be." This the most fundamental truth that is taught from Genesis to Revelation. You came into this world as a sinner by nature as by one man's act all mankind were made sinners by nature (Rom. 5;12-19) and as soon as you were able to individually express yourself you became a sinner by choice. So YOU burnt the toast and so YOU are to blame for your own evil heart as YOU sinned in Adam, as the whole human nature existed and acted when Adam sinned, thus "all HAVE sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

    Rom. 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

    This text does not say by many mens disobedinces many were made sinners but "by one man's disobedience" MANY WERE MADE SINNERS.

    That means when Adam single act of disobedience BURNT THE TOAST YOU BURNT THE TOAST and thus you are responsible for your own evil heart.

    That is why jesus said, "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME" (Jn. 6:44). The word "can" refers to ability. No man has the ABILITY to come to Christ because they BURNT the toast, meaning their INABILITY to come to Christ is due to their own sin IN ADAM.


    No, I did not say that. God said that, I merely quoted HIS WORD - Ezek. 36:26; Deut. 29:4; etc.






    No I don't! Jesus does:

    And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. - mt. 19:17

    In context, the rich young ruler regarded himself equally intrinsically good as Christ by nature. In other words, he thought himself to be as good as God. That is why Jesus asked why did he call Christ "good" because he did not recognize Jesus as God but no different than himself as far as being intrinsically good.

    No, I don't! Paul does:

    Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.


    No I don't! David does:

    Psa. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one.


    Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
     
  17. utilyan

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    You lack common sense. Preaching a CHRISTLESS Gospel.

    Romans 5
    18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    That's God's status with all mankind. Its about the equality we share with each other. Which is why through Christ ALL men are saved. Which in 2 Corinthians 5 end in a state of reconciliation. All charges have been DROPPED.

    Jesus wasn't being obnoxious when he told man no one is good. He was being humble saying he was his equal. All men are equal. Jesus was the only one being called good.

    Jesus was humble, opposed to egomaniac.

    Matthew 4
    8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”




    Ezekiel 18

    19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


    I can say Amen to ALL the bible verses including this ONE^ Ezekiel 18. I don't even have to explain what the verse means. Can you say AMEN to the world of the Lord?
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Back to your common MO? Totally ignore the scriptures set before you and back to name calling and pitting scripture against scripture thus jerking scripture out of context?

    So now you believe in universal salvation ("ALL men are saved") and none go to hell????




    So, now your pitting Ezekiel 18 against Romans 5??? Ezekiel 18 is the case within the realm of FALLEN MAN KIND. However, Romans 5 deals with why fallen mankind occurred in the case of an unfallen Adam. I feel sorry for you because you don't know a thing about what you speak and your mishandling God's Word as is the case with every person who pits scripture against scripture as though God is the author of confusion.


    How? When you are pitting one against another!
    Because you couldn't if you tried and that is self-evident!
    Of course I can, because I am teaching them in keeping with their context and I am not pitting scripture against scripture.
     
  19. The American Dream

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    You need to go back and read Romans 1-3. You are misinformed about the natural man and his path to salvation.
     
  20. utilyan

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    These scripture are not pitted against each other at all. They work in perfect harmony.

    They don't work with your theology. That's the point.

    I can say amen to all of romans, TO ALL SCRIPTURE I say amen. You don't give one lick of explanation of Ezekiel 18.

    You are the one pitting scripture against scripture.


    Look above I gave no interpretation for Ezekiel 18, I didn't have to explain it at all. Simply quoted and I say AMEN to what it says. You could never do that, you always have to add to it the word of God is never sufficient.

    I show me where I said I am against what romans 5 says. How can you say I am against it and at the same time conclude I claim universal salvation from it?


    "So now you believe in universal salvation ("ALL men are saved") and none go to hell????"

    God commands salvation of all mankind. Those who reject put themselves in hell.

    For something to be a sin it means GOD sincerely did not want you to do it. His command on all men is to love God and love neighbor.

    If the command is eat breakfast, lunch and dinner on all mankind how do you conclude God wants folks to be hungry?


    I gave you an easy post. I put the ball right in your hands. All you had to do is say AMEN to the word of God and explain what Ezekiel means, instead you dropped the ball.

    You couldn't do that with your ignore scripture and either/or theology.

    I'm still waiting. Don't ignore this scripture.
     

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