JW's and Mormons

...on the same day. Today.

JW's came up, four ladies in the car, one tiny little Oriental lady got out and came to our door. We talked to her first about yes it was wonderful to worship God, and yes, the end times were near, and yes, we look forward to return of Christ.

Then we zeroed in on who Jesus is -- God. Major disagreement, of course. Isaiah 'first and last' compared to Revelation 'first and last'. Same Person: God is Jesus. John 10 when the Jews say they want to stone Him because He claims to be God. Jesus' use of the "I AM" three times in John. So many more....He is the Creator: Colossians and Hebrews.

She kept hitting on John 17:3 to show that Jesus is different from God. There was no getting through.

I found myself literally shaking from anger (kept inside) at hearing the blasphemy and I had to go inside. Barry walked her back to her car, showing her more Bible verses along the way and then one of the ladies in the car came out to 'rescue' here from being 'attacked.'

Then two young Mormon ladies this afternoon. They always come in pairs, whether men or women, with a more experienced and a less experienced.

We agreed that Jesus is Savior. I thought we would agree He is God, but they said no. Having grown up around Mormons and having had some of my best friends as Mormons earlier in life, that left me a little stunned. I asked them if they did not believe in many gods. They said only with a small 'g' but not with a capital G. There was only one God.

So I asked them who created everything. They replied that God did, through Jesus. So I said "Then Jesus is the Creator?" "Yes, but only because Heavenly Father worked through Him."

"Well, then, Heavenly Father is the Creator?"

"He did it through Jesus."

"So who is the Creator? Are there two?"

No, there were not two, but then things got switched around. I pushed about more than one god.

"Doesn't Mormonism teach we are all spirit children of God before we get bodies to live on earth?"

The short answer was 'yes.'

"Then we are Gods?"

"No. We will be LIKE God. Just like you are like your parents here on earth, but you are not them."

"But they are human and I am human. I was born fully human, as they are human. If we are spirit children of God, then we are Gods, too, right?"

That one didn't go over.

We noticed, though, that the less experienced of the two was busy looking up all the verses Barry was referencing. She ended up asking some good questions.

The older concentrated on knowing what was right because of her experieince. I responded that I was easily deceived by my own experiences, as is everyone, and that is why I needed a plumb line outside of myself to judge the truth by. And that is what the Bible is. God's Word. It is how we judge what is true and false, what is right and wrong, so that we don't have to depend on ourselves.

The younger girl listened carefully. The older one shut down like a frightened clam. "Correct insofar as it is correctly translated." I knew that line. I told her it was a cop out; God was in charge of all of it.

The younger one asked me if I thought that if a person just believed in Jesus he/she was saved. That gave me the opportunity I needed to explain about salvation as the Bible explains it. She listened, which was interesting. She asked if a person who was saved commited murder if he was still saved.

I told her I didn't go too much for what if stories, but I knew from my own experience and the Bible that anyone who belongs to Christ is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that with the Spirit in control of you, it would be very difficult, to say the least, to commit some horrendous crime like that. I explained that being born again meant that you were no longer the same person inside and that the change was truly glorious.

She seemed fascinated, but I knew our time was drawing to a close as the older one was shutting her book and latching it.

Barry did talk also about salvation being by grace alone through faith alone and not of works (lest any man should boast); whereas they are taught that it is grace after works. I asked if then works had to precede grace and, after some discussion, the answer was yes. So I asked them to turn to Isaiah 64:6 and either one of them read it out loud. The younger one did. All our righteous works are as filthy rags....

So that is how God considers the works of the unredeemed sinner...

Earlier (I forgot to mention this in the paragraphs above) when we were talking about whether or not everyone was a spirit child of God before incarnation here on earth, we mentioned John 1 and read where those who believe are given the right to become children of God. How could that be if they already were?

There was more. The older one had shut down pretty early in the game, actually, and why she allowed the younger one to sit and listen to us so long, I don't know, but I thank God for that. I think some seeds were planted today. I know they won't be back, but one precious soul might be thinking on her own tonight....or maybe tomorrow...or maybe in a year. She might read the Bible on her own....she might pray for the truth.

I mentioned about how in Romans 1 the truth was so important that those who suppressed it were recipients of God's wrath. So I figured the truth was very, very important.

The older girl said flatly she knew the Book of Mormon was true and her experiences confirmed that.

The younger girl listened. And that was enormous.

 

I agree with bapmom regarding the primacy of identifying Christ as God. The ONLY God. Not 'one in purpose' as the Mormons say, and not 'a' god as the JW's say. But as God Himself.

It might be good to note that Jesus uses the I AM reference a number of times in John. "If you do not believe I am (who I say I am) -- in the Greek it is 'ego eimi' or "I am I AM"...you will die in your sins." He identified Himself as the I AM to the woman at the well. When the Jews went to stone Him and He asked them why, they told Him it was because He, a mere man, claimed to be God. Then there is "before Abraham was, I AM."

Go also to Isaiah where God identifies Himself as the Beginning and the End (it's in chapter 44 or near there...I'm exhausted from working outside today...and if whoever reads this looks it up you will remember it better than if I do again!), and then go to Revelation 1 where Jesus identified Himself to John as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

I'm sure that there are a number of others here who can point to other verses where Jesus is identifed as God, and the only God.

It is because of our faith in Christ that we are saved, and not because of anything we can ever do or anything else or person we can ever believe in. Therefore Who Christ is, is the most important thing we can try to get across to cultists.