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Keep commandments?The tree of life?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GAPS119X20, Dec 15, 2001.

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  1. GAPS119X20

    GAPS119X20 New Member

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    THE BOTTOMLESS PIT


    PSALM 94 [11] The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;[13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

    Teach out of thy law-until pit digged for the wicked

    PSALM 119 [84] How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?[85] The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.[86] All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

    They who are not after the law have dug pits-commandments faithful

    PROVERBS 28 [9] He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
    [10] Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

    Turn from hearing the law and fall into pit they themselves dug

    ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
    [4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.[17] Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.[22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

    DAY OF THE LORD-transgressed the laws-the pit-after many days visited(one thousand years?)

    REV.20 [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his
    hand.[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    I wonder why he will be let out for a little season after the 1000 year period of rest
     
    #81 GAPS119X20, Jan 4, 2002
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GAPS119X20:
    I wonder why he will be let out for a little season after the 1000 year period of rest<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And your point is??
    Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?
     
    #82 DHK, Jan 5, 2002
  3. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,
    As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when “nights” is added to “days” to yield the phrase “3 days AND 3 nights” it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where “day” refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and “night” refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase “ 3 days AND 3 nights” was a unique idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek during apostolic times which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.
     
    #83 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  4. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    DHK,

    As regards Mark 16:9, most good study Bible versions in their notes question whether Mark wrote verses 9-20 as opposed to them being added at a later date. But even if verse 9 were authentic it could just as well be translated with the comma being placed after the word “risen” (past tense) instead of after the word “week”. Punctuation marks were not in the early writings and had to be determined by the translators according to their subjective understanding of the text’s meaning. Several versions that place the comma after “risen” are “The Centenary Translation”, “The Sacred Scriptures-Bethel Edition”, The Contemporary English Version”, and “God’s New Covenant-A New Testament Translation”.
     
    #84 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  5. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,

    If the crucifixion took place on Friday, then you would have to throw out Luke 24:21 which reads, “..........and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done.” Since this statement was made on Sunday, then the second day SINCE these things were done would be Saturday, and the first day SINCE these things were done would be Friday which would make the day that these things were done, Thursday. That is assuming, of course, that the last thing they were referring to as being done was the crucifixion. However, if the last thing done was the placing of the guard at the tomb, then the crucifixion would have had to have been no later than Wednesday.
     
    #85 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  6. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,

    re: “We know that the NT Christians were meeting on the first day of the week, 1Cor 16:2.”

    1 Corinthians 16:2 says nothing about coming together to meet or worship on the first day of the week.

    In fact there is only one verse in the entire New Testament (Acts 20:7) that says anything about disciples getting together on the first of the week, and this was on a specific day when Paul was in town. Nothing is said about this happening again.
     
    #86 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  7. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    I think there's more scriptural evidence than you do. But we also have the writings of apostolic men which proves to us how they viewed keeping the seventh day (it was heresy) as opposed to keeping the first day (in honor of our Lord's resurrection).

    Pauline
     
    #87 Pauline, Jan 5, 2002
  8. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,

    re: “I think there’s more scripture evidence than you do.”


    Okay, I’m listening. What is there in scripture that makes it absolutely necessary to have a Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection?


    re: “ .......we also have the writings of apostolic men which proves to us how they viewed keeping the seventh day (it was heresy)....”

    Book, chapter and verse please.
     
    #88 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rstrats:

    Okay, I?m listening. What is there in scripture that makes it absolutely necessary to have a Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There is plenty of Scripture that points to Christ rising on the third day, as you are probably aware of. The problem arises not in the resurrection day, where there is almost unanimous agreement, but in the day when he was crucified. If you are saying that he could have risen on the Sabbath or Saturday then what are you getting at. Are you trying to deny the resurrection? Perhaps a belief in the swoon theory or a belief that his body was stolen? What is your point here? Virtually no one denies that he arose on the first day of the week--Sunday.
    But there is a great deal of controversy when he died, or was crucified. The problem lies in this: "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." There is no way that you can fit three days and three nights between between friday and Sunday no matter how you look at it. I personally believe that he could have been crucified as early as Wednesday. He may have been crucified on Thursday. I am still not quite sure on this issue. But I am sure that it was not on Friday. And I am sure that He arose on the first day of the week. Those facts I can work with. The rest I will have to study out when I get the time to. It is a question that many theologians have never come to a consensus on, and I don't think will be solved in a short time on this board.
    DHK
     
    #89 DHK, Jan 5, 2002
  10. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    re: “ If you are saying that he could have risen on the Sabbath or Saturday then what are you getting at. Are you trying to deny the resurrection?”

    Why would a Saturday resurrection be denying it?


    re: “What is your point here?”

    I merely wondered what scripture Pauline was using to support her idea of a Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection (2 nights and parts of 2 or 3 days). I know of none and apparently you don’t either.


    re: “I am sure that He arose on the first day of the week.”

    Do you have any indisputable scripture to support that major point of doctrine?
     
    #90 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  11. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,

    re: “In NT times the Christians were already keeping the first day of the week, calling it the Lord's Day.”

    re: “The apostles changed that day to the first day of the week, the Lord’s Day, during NT times.”

    Please provide some scripture that refers to the first day of the week as the Lord’s Day.


    Also, can you find:


    One Biblical text that says the Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

    One text where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

    One text where we are told to keep the first day of the week?

    One text that says that the Messiah ever kept the first day?

    One text where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

    One text that tells us to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of the Messiah?

    One text that affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

    One text from any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

    One text where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

    One text where any blessings are promised for observing Sunday?

    One text that says the seventh day is not now God’s Sabbath day?

    One text that says that the seventh-day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

    One text that says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?
     
    #91 rstrats, Jan 5, 2002
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rstrats:
    I merely wondered what scripture Pauline was using to support her idea of a Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection (2 nights and parts of 2 or 3 days). I know of none and apparently you don’t either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then tell us what you do know? When was Christ buried? When did he arise from the dead? He was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He arose again on the third day. On what day was he crucified? On what day did he rise again?
    DHK
     
    #92 DHK, Jan 6, 2002
  13. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    rstrats,
    Go to www.ccel.org and read the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, an apostolic man and martyr for the Faith.

    Read the Epistle to the Trallians, chapters Vi and VII: Ignatius clearly says Christ was crucified on the "day of preparation", which is the sixth day. He "continued" in the tomb during the sabbath. And "the dawn of the Lord's day, He arose from the dead...as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the whale's belly."

    Also go to the Epistle to the Magnesians:
    There Ignatius says that the Christians do not observe the sabbath but live in the observance of the Lord's day. He links this to the day of Christ's resurrection and calls it the "8th day", a term that Catholics still use today, which we call the first day of the week.

    Ignatius, also in the letter to the Magnesians also says: "It is absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to Judaize." In another place in the same letter, he says: "if we live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace..." There's quite a bit more along that line. I urge you to go read all this for yourself.

    Pauline

    [ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]
     
    #93 Pauline, Jan 6, 2002
  14. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    DHK,

    re: “When was Christ buried?”

    I don’t know - either Wednesday or Thursday.


    re: “When did he arise from the dead?”

    I don’t know - either Saturday or Sunday.


    re: “On what day was he crucified?”

    I don’t know - either Wednesday or Thursday.
     
    #94 rstrats, Jan 6, 2002
  15. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    Pauline,

    Sorry, but this Ignatius guy doesn’t reference any applicable scripture to support his notions about the Sabbath or about the first day of the week being set aside as a special day for religious observance.
     
    #95 rstrats, Jan 7, 2002
  16. GAPS119X20

    GAPS119X20 New Member

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    Hi Pauline
    Go to www.ccel.org and read the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, an apostolic man and martyr for the Faith.
    Read the Epistle to the Trallians, chapters Vi and VII: Ignatius clearly says Christ was crucified on the "day of preparation", which is the sixth day.

    Who are these people you talk about?And why should i care what they say?Im not trying to be sarcastic,but who are they?
     
    #96 GAPS119X20, Jan 7, 2002
  17. GAPS119X20

    GAPS119X20 New Member

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    THY REDEEMER

    GAL.3 [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] Christ hath redeemed us from
    the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Christ hath redeemed us - the curse of the law and not the law itself

    TITUS 2 [11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;[14] Who gave himself for us,
    that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    our Saviour Jesus Christ - he might redeem us from all iniquity

    REV.5 [8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.[9] And they sung a
    new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    the Lamb - redeemed us to God

    ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which
    teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O that thou hadst hearkened
    to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

    Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel - O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!

    PSALM 19 [6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure,
    making wise the simple.[8] The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.[9] The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true
    and righteous altogether.[10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.[12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.[13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great
    transgression.[14] Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight,
    O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

    The law of the LORD is perfect - the commandment of the LORD is pure - O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

    ISAIAH 44 [5] One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another
    shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.[6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.[9] They that make a graven image are all of them vanity;
    and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.[10] Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

    The LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts - about every church in the usa have graven images!

    Our redeemer is JESUS.Listen to what he says about the commandments and the law.
     
    #97 GAPS119X20, Jan 8, 2002
  18. Pauline

    Pauline New Member

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    Gaps,
    Ignatius is one of the martyrs of the Christian Faith. One who knew the Apostles and passed on what they gave him. He is a witness from the first century on what the Christian Church taught and believed and practiced. It might be well to listen to him.

    Pauline
     
    #98 Pauline, Jan 8, 2002
  19. GAPS119X20

    GAPS119X20 New Member

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    Hi all

    1COR.6 [12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.[13] Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

    1PETER 4 [1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;[2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.[3] For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

    MATT.7 [3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    As i am under the power of cigarettes and i feel that i eat more food than i should i am leaving the board until i take care of these things.There are other scriptures besides MATT.7 that tell me to do this.Old and new.Ill be back. It was nice getting to know all you people.
     
    #99 GAPS119X20, Jan 9, 2002
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