Kenya Mall Attack: The Bitter Fruits of Interventionism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. poncho

    poncho
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    In his speech yesterday at the United Nations General Assembly, President Obama devoted little time to the recent slaughter of some 62 shoppers at the Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya.

    Said Obama, in toto:
    But even a glance at today’s headlines indicates that dangers remain. In Kenya, we’ve seen terrorists target innocent civilians in a crowded shopping mall. And our hearts go out to the families of those who’ve been affected.​
    Yes, what happened in Kenya is a terrorist act. But for Obama to tell the rest of the story would undermine his narrative and unravel Washington's strange relationship with the al-Qaeda affilliated al-Shabaab organization that claimed responsibility for the attack. Al-Shabaab, or "Mujahideen Youth Movement," in fact owes its birth to US interventionism in Africa, as it sprang up from the ashes of the Islamic Courts Movement that had ruled Somalia until a US-sponsored invasion by Ethiopia destroyed the Courts Movement in 2007 and divided supporters into factions. Some decided to work with the US-supported Transitional Federal Government (TFG); others, like the al-Shabaab, decided to resist US and other foreign occupation and intervention in Somali affairs.

    As globetrotting analyst Pepe Escobar points out in a highly recommended recent article, the Islamic Courts had generally stabilized Somalia and disarmed many of the militias. They were proponents of Sharia law, which the US found intolerable and labeled "terrorist," opening the door for the brand new US Africa Command, based in Germany, to begin working on regime change.

    As a nationalist and then religious-oriented group, al-Shabaab may well have been extremist in orientation and even "terrorist" in tactics, but theirs was a localized struggle. The idea that the ongoing battle over who ruled Somalia was somehow covered in the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) against those who attacked the US on 9/11 is a stretch to the breaking point. But the AUMF it was -- and is -- that justifies Obama's ongoing war on Africa.

    A counter-argument could be made that al-Shabaab has established ties with al-Qaeda and therefore "associated forces" language from the AUMF may kick in to allow the US attacks against them. But how to then reconcile the fact that many if not most of the rebel groups fighting in Syria who receive direct and indirect support from the US government are also affiliated with al-Qaeda? Some, including "McCain's Moderates" the FSA, have publicly pledged their loyalty to al-Qaeda as recently as this month!

    And the al-Nusra Front in Syria, on whose side the US is fighting a proxy war, is also affiliated with Somalia's al-Shabaab -- the guys who attacked the mall in Kenya so criticized by Obama in his UN speech.

    Should the US attack itself over its own cooperation with "associated forces"?

    CONTINUE . . .
     
  2. church mouse guy

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    This article is very ill-informed. Al-Qaeda was defeated quite a few years ago and are no longer a threat.
     
  3. poncho

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    Must be Al-Shabaab and Al Nusra haven't got the memo yet.
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Going for a world-record tongue sprain there, huh, CMG?

    [​IMG]

    Poncho, you're anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian (based on the fact all you ever post are lies about the U.S. in the News or Politics forums. No one gives your views and respect, and most of us avoid them most of the time. Today is an exception because you've obviously been very active overnight.

    What? Couldn't sleep? Did you let the gremlins into your brain so they could feed you more garbage from the anti-U.S. dustbins?

    No one cares. I don't even care enough to write this, but I've got a rare day off and have nothing better to do than read you idiocies. Essentially, you fit the profile of an old-line communist, and have shown none of us anything to indicate you aren't. You need to just go away.
     
  5. poncho

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    You know people can see all the threads you started too. Last time I checked a couple days ago the only thread you posted in other than news and politics is the welcome thread and you rushed in here so fast to spew Bill O'Rielly's opinions around you didn't even bother to introduce yourself.

    So accusing someone of doing the same thing you have been doing would make you a __________.

    Anti American? No I'm just pro constitution the rule of law and our founding principles.

    That means I am diametrically opposed to your neocon vision for America where the govt can spy on us all without warrants, lock us up indefinitely without due process or even murder us on the word of one man alone without arrest charge or trial based on secret evidence.

    That's not America, that's Amerika.

    I am against the torture of others no matter which euphemism you use to defend it. I am against the idea that the govt should be able to tell us who is allowed and who is not allowed to be a real journalist. Which is something you and Dianne Feinstein whole heartedly agreed on recently.

    I am against the fascist system of government and finance that you keep mistaking for "free enterprise ". Is that on purpose for propaganda sake or are you really that uneducated about different forms of government.

    I know you have our current corporatist form of government confused with a republican form of government. That's been obvious from the start so must be you're just uneducated. Spent all your time in school putting down George Washington and Thomas Jefferson instead of studying civics and it shows. :laugh:

    Funny my threads always get more views than yours. To be brutally honest with you no one here needs to read any of your threads or replies anyways. We can hear you on Saudi Fox News any day of the week. If we wanted to hear what Bill O'Rielly and his Sunni Muslim backers has to say we'd just turn on the TV. Most of choose not to for a reason. When they aren't aren't crying for more war they're doing their best to keep us divided and powerless to make any change to the corruption and lawlessness in Washington.

    It ain't working anymore. Most folks already figured out the likes of John McCain and Lindsey Grahham are just shills for the arms industry that couldn't care less how many people have to die so they can get re elected.

    Now that you mention it being well informed is time consuming. 30 Minutes of listening to Bill O'Reilly might be alot easier but then I'd just be getting worn out neocon hot air instead of finding out what's really going on out there. I'd rather put in the work and get the truth.


    Oh now Bill, this old song isn't working anymore. Everyone knows the trouble you neocons are having being heard these days. You scream as loud and as long as you can into all the microphones "we need more war, we need more war, we need more war! USA! USA! USA!" The numbers don't lie Buddro People are tuning you and Bill out. No one wants to hear it anymore.

    And no one is paying you any mind anymore. Tell ya why. We've heard all your neocon lies before. No one is buying it this time Billy. Of course there's a few "dead enders" that still cling to the old Trotsky and Leo Strauss ways but no one takes them serious anymore.

    Bet you don't even know who Leo Strauss and Trotsky were. That's information Bill O'Reilly wouldn't share with even his closest disciples.

    So, I'm a commie for defending the constitution and bill of rights against your corporatist form of government? No, an economy controlled by global banksters and corporate monopoly men is not "free enterprise". In a free enterprise system the "too big to fails" would be allowed to fail and be replaced with banks and companies that responds to the market instead of manipulating it to survive. In a free enterprise system companies would have to compete against each other resulting in cheaper better made goods instead of creating monopolies that use congress to pass legislation that allows them destroy their competition.

    What you keep calling "free enterprise" is corporatism. And yes I am against it because it hurts not only America but every other country that is adopting this corrupt corporate system. No matter how much you and Bill O'Rielly and John McCain twist it.

    Don't you think you'd be more believable if you tried to make sense once in awhile? I mean come on I'm even starting to get embarrassed for ya.

    Do you even have an opinion that hasn't come directly from O'Rielly's mouth?
     
    #5 poncho, Sep 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  6. poncho

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    Kenyan Bloodbath: State-Sponsored Sophistication & Motivation

    Anti-ICC Kenyan President and his government appear to be the target of US-bolstered Al Qaeda attack.

    September 24, 2013 (Tony Cartalucci) - What are the chances that family members of Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta just so happened to be visiting Nairobi's Westgate Mall in the midst of an unprecedented cross-border attack by Al Qaeda Al Shabaab terrorists - and that these family members were successfully singled out and murdered? The BBC reported in its article, "Nairobi Westgate attack: The victims," that:
    President Uhuru Kenyatta's nephew Mbugua Mwangi and his fiancee Rosemary Wahito are among the many Kenyans killed in the attack on the Westgate shopping centre.
    What are the chances that Al Qaeda is armed and funded by the US from Afghanistan in the 1980's, to Libya in 2011, and now Syria to undermine enemies of Wall Street and London, but not in Somalia to undermine neighboring Kenya whose new president won partly due to a popular backlash against the West's discredited International Criminal Court (ICC)?

    CONTINUE . . .
     
  7. poncho

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2035506&postcount=11

    2007-2008 US West Point reports reveal Al Qaeda network behind NATO's so-called "freedom fighters." Extremists in Syria were behind Iraq War foreign terrorist influx, not Syrian government.

    Must be West Point didn't get the memo either CMG.
     
  8. church mouse guy

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    I got the message from the Prez over the tv, Poncho. Here is one of your favorite neo-cons summarizing a couple of months ago:

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...-al-qaeda-claims-now-were-on-the-run-n1656337

    "Well, all I know is what I read in the papers."Will Rogers, New York Times, Sept 30 1923
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    First intervention is not automatically a bad thing. Coming to the aid of people who are being bullied and slaughtered by Islam is always justified.

    Second, just because Islam doesn't like our aid to the injustice Islam delivers to others does not make their claims credible.

    I think we need to be more careful in choosing where we intervene but intervention can be a good thing and it is never an excuse to say "oh look what we did and now we are paying the price".

    When we intervene there is never justification for retaliation. I swear its like we living in an alternate universe where everything is turned upside down and backwards.
     
  10. poncho

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    I agree with ya Rev, but the people that could really use our help are the Christians and Jews that the Jihadis are beheading and chasing out of their homes. The CIA should be arming the Christians and Jews instead of the Jihadis.

    Washington aided the Jihadis in overthrowing the Libyan government but before that Washington aided the Afghani and foreign Arab fighters that later became "Al Qaeda" that's turned up in Liyba and Syria and just about every other country Washington is sanctioning or dropping it's love bombs on. Now Washington is aiding the Jihadis in Syria.

    The Qatari's offered to pay for our military costs to fight their war against Assad! I find that insulting, it's bad enough our military has become a mercenary force for the mega banks and corporations, sorry "international community". The idea that a foreign nation and a dictatorship that employs Jihadi's as mercenaries at that should go so far as to think it can rent our military out to do it's bidding is disgusting. Imho anyways.

    And Joe Bidden acted like it was a good thing when he announced it!

    The way we (more precisely Washington and "international community") intervene has very rarely been a good thing. We're always arming one side against the other so we or "they" can gain more access to their resources and markets. "They" always make out like bandits and we get to pay for it. It's not about helping the poor the crippled the hungry or oppressed. Those are just the justifications not the motive. If the opposite were true we'd be arming the Christians and Jews over in Syria instead of the Jihadi's.

    C'mon Rev you're a smart guy do you really believe that our corporatist government goes around giving our money away unconstitutionally to other nations to help them out?

    Do you really think Washington sheds tears at night for all the Egyptians that have died from the weapons it gifted the Egyptian military with? Some how I can't imagine Obama or John McCain losing any sleep over how many of their own people people the Saudi and Qatari regimes have killed. Nooooo their our bestest allies. ever! That's why 15 of them (allegedly) flew airplanes into the WTC towers. They love us so much.

    Why isn't Washington and the "international community" gifting the poor oppressed people in North Korea with our love bombs to liberate them? If anyone needs help getting out from under the thumb of a certified crazy dictator they do.

    Where is Washington though? Handing out cash and weapons to the Jihadi's in Syria on the behalf of Muslim dictators that actually believe they can rent our military out to fight their wars for them.

    Where have all the real conservatives that never believed in all this nation building stuff before gone? Where has all the anti war liberals crawled off to?
     
    #10 poncho, Sep 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2013
  11. church mouse guy

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    Poncho, Obama should not have forced Mubarak out even though he was repressive against the Copts. Once the Muslim Brotherhood took over, only the Egyptian military could drive them out of Egypt, as they have tried to do before. Therefore, I support what the Egyptian military did in Egypt even though it was opposed by the American government of Obama/Biden/Kerry.
     
  12. poncho

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    By supporting the Muslim Brotherhood Washington is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in Egypt and else where. So I agree with you.

    Still I am opposed to giving "foreign aid" especially military aid to other countries because it is un-constitutional. If the Egyptians want tanks and ammo then let them use their own arms industry to supply themselves. John McCain can find himself another market for his campaign donor's weapons.

    Here's another report on the Kenya terrorist attack.


    Kenya shopping mall attack: Nairobi hostages were tortured before they were killed, says police doctor

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...y-were-killed-says-police-doctor-8842509.html

    I'll let you all read the details for yourselves. Washington is even now sending money and weapons to al-Shabaab's ideological partners in Syria. Isn't that charming?


    I found this bit at the very end of the Independent's article . . .

    Kenya’s National Intelligence Agency (NIS), widely accused by politicians of failing to pick up chatter about the attack, has insisted it did warn the police and officials inside the President’s office before the Westgate siege, but its warnings went unheeded, The Star reported.


    According to the same report, a pregnant policewoman avoided Westgate after her brother, who works for Kenyan intelligence, warned her of a terror attack. “She has told police that her brother who is a NIS officer warned her not to visit Westgate that Saturday because she would not be able to run,” a senior officer was quoted as saying.

    Prior knowledge of the attack? Sounds like it. It's getting to be a regular feature of terrorist attacks these days.

    Related story . . .

    Kenya has vowed not to bow to Shebab threats of more attacks if troops are not pulled out of Somalia, following a devastating mall attack in Nairobi by the Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents.

    From Another Related Story . . .

    This theft of arms (in Libya) needs to be seen in an even broader context, which is the utter folly of the U.S. military adventurism of the past 15 years. The libertarian anti-war position has, among its themes, consistently argued that the foreign U.S. military actions in the last 15 years were spawning terrorists, terrorism and retaliation of various kinds. The Nairobi event has to be seen as connected to events in Somalia. Another theme has been that these intrusions were de-stabilizing states and delicate balances between Shia and Sunni sectarian interests. These intrusions have been creating whole new regions in which terrorism and armed conflicts could flourish. Yet another theme has been the folly of thinking that the U.S. could secure itself or eliminate terrorism by military actions, or that it could rebuild states in new democratic forms, or that it could remake societies along lines desired by the U.S. government.

    A large theft of U.S. weapons in Libya reinforces the meaning of the Benghazi event, which is the futility of these armed interventions as a means of creating a better world. That approach is bankrupt, and more and more people and even officials are recognizing this. No one can miss that message except for the staunch warmongers who persist in calling for more and ever more. No one with any sense can be listening any longer to Netanyahu’s broken record. Every day in Iraq, a very large number of persons are being slaughtered in sectarian strife. Syria is an equally large tragedy. Libertarian analysis cuts even deeper,

    I don't know for sure what you have been basing this opinion on Rev (I have a hunch though) but I do know it cannot be based on the facts and the long history of "our" military/humanitarian /economic interventions in the affairs of other nations. Maybe the universe would make more sense to you if you were to rely more on well documented facts and history to form your opinions rather than bankrupt nationalistic slogans/themes and contrived government narratives. Just sayin.

     
    #12 poncho, Sep 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2013
  13. poncho

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    Kenya's Westgate siege: 'Militants hired shop to hide arms'

    The militants who led the attack on a Kenyan mall hired a shop there in the weeks leading up to the siege, senior security sources have told the BBC.

    This gave them access to service lifts at Westgate enabling them to stockpile weapons and ammunition.

    Having pre-positioned weapons they were able to re-arm quickly and repel the security forces.

    < snip >

    The BBC investigation has revealed how the Westgate gunmen were able to plan and carry out the siege, and how security breaches allegedly fuelled by corruption made it an attack waiting to happen.

    To rent a shop, the militants would have needed fake IDs supplied by corrupt government officials.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24306648


    Soldiers told of the horrific torture meted out by terrorists in the Nairobi mall massacre yesterday with claims hostages were dismembered, had their eyes gouged out and were left hanging from hooks in the ceiling.

    Men were said to have been castrated and had fingers removed with pliers before being blinded and hanged.

    Children were found dead in the food court fridges with knives still embedded in their bodies, it was claimed.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Eyes-gouged-bodies-hooks-fingers-removed.html
     
    #13 poncho, Sep 29, 2013
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  14. church mouse guy

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  15. poncho

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    This must be one of those conspiracy theories cooked up by right wing redneck racists that hate Obama because of his skin color.

    Interesting note, the Bushies have always been real cozy with the Saudi royal family to. Jr. Bush even went so far as to call Prince Bandar "Bandar Bush" because of their cozy brotherly relationship.
     
    #15 poncho, Sep 29, 2013
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