Kerry and Murtha-Birds of a Feather...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by carpro, Jan 13, 2006.

  1. carpro

    carpro
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    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200601\SPE20060113a.html

    Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
    By Marc Morano and Randy Hall
    CNSNews.com Staff
    January 13, 2006

    Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam

    (CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

    Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

    A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

    "[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

    The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

    "In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

    But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

    "I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.


    SNIP

    A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

    SNIP


    'He's a phony and a liar'

    Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

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    I'll take either one of these guys over GW Bush. After using his father's influence to jump over a 100 man waiting list into the Texas Air National Guard, he then decided to quit showing up i.e. he went AWOL. You guys try to knock down men who at least served their country and sing the praises of a coward who didn't.
     
  3. Terry_Herrington

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    Boy, if you question the Bush administration, your service to your country is called into question. This is strange, since it was George W. who went AWOL after hiding out in Texas to avoid the Vietnam War.
     
  4. emeraldctyangel

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    Im sure the thousands of men who served in the National Guard really appreciate your viewpoint on how *they* were such cowards during Vietnam, they hid in the guard units. The insults just keep on coming. I hope you never sit and wonder why people dont take you seriously.

    Have you ever stopped to think that it might not be the President who just steps up the paparazzi like media attention when it comes to someone who opens their mouth and gains international attention for whatever their point of view is? Its common knowledge across the net that both 04 Presidential candidates were evenly smeared (or a smear was attempted rather) by a couple of the US hating groups out there. The rumors fly and you just perpetuate them. You must be so proud.

    I thought it was obscene to discuss Sen Kerry the way they did during the campaign. I respect his service just as I equally respected what the swift boat vets had to say - after all, they were there. I knew who he was prior to his party nomination though.

    Murtha however, is someone that never got on the radar until he spoke up about something that preferred a vote, which promptly lost. I guess his success was mostly as a Marine (and that is enough for most of them), and not as a Representative. ~shrugs~
     
  5. Daisy

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    Most people know perfectly well that there is a huge difference between the National Guard of the 70s and the ones now. Nowadays, no one uses political influence to jump ahead of the line in order to join. Nowadays Nationals Guards see combat routinely rather than work on out of state political campaigns like our boy did. How many Guardsmen can get away with skipping training for nearly a year with no consequences?

    You are the one who is insulting a fellow poster and making personal comments - then accusing the very one you are insulting with doing what you are doing. There is a word for that.

    I have no idea what that sentence is trying to say.

    What rumor? It's documented that the Bush leapfrogged over two hundred men to get into the Texas National Guard and that he cannot account for his whereabouts for nearly a year of his service. It is also documented that the military documents on Kerry's medals and those of the Swifties contradicts the Swifties' accounts of what happened.

    Except that the swifties contradict themselves and military records. Plus Thurlow's story just defies common sense - that while he was rescuing someone he had the time to watch in minutia what Kerry was doing some distance away. I have little respect for the Swifties beyond their actual service in Vietnam.

    What do you know of Murtha's accomplishments or lack thereof as a Representative that renders him worthy of attack?
     
  6. carpro

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    His purple Hearts were questioned by Bailey long before Bush was even considered for President.
     
  7. Rocko9

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    It is ridiculous to compare Kerry to Murtha. Murtha is a true American hero and statesman. On the otherhand we can compare Clinton and Bush as being "Birds of a Feather" for avoiding Viet Nam, their military service was certainly less than admirable.
     
  8. carpro

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    You may be right , Rocko. It may not be fair to compare Murtha with Kerry.

    From all appearances, Murtha was actually wounded twice. I don't understand why he lied about how he was wounded nor why he was so ashamed of his PHs.

    Kerry , on the other hand, collected 2 PHs for self inflicted wounds under non combat conditions. He is very proud of his medals, while Murtha is ashamed of his.

    Go figure. :confused:
     
  9. Rocko9

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    It is no suprise that the attacks on Murtha's military career was going to happen. How many times have we seen this administration use smear tactics as a means to assassinate someones character for questioning the Presidents reasons for the war in Iraq.
     
  10. carpro

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    His war hero status was challenged in 1996 by Harry Fox.

    I guess the President's supporters were clairvoyant and planning ahead. ;)
     
  11. Rocko9

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    Didn't Harry Fox run against Jack Murtha a long long time ago.Well maybe Ol' Harry was just getting some jabs in on the old fella.
     
  12. emeraldctyangel

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    Ah Miss Cleo was hard at work then was she? LOL!

    Daisy - Military service is military service no matter when someone signed up for it. Im ignoring your perceived disdain for it because I figured its likely you dont realize that we all play a role in it - from guarding a fence in Oklahoma to sitting in the jungles of Vietnam. Or maybe you just dont care as long as you dont have to break a nail.

    Ask how many RESERVISTS can skip away without having to serve. The NG has one particular role in the defense of this nation and are generally considered the last to go outside our borders in that effort. Reservists are absorbed into the active side of the house and there are MANY of them that go UA today. AND WE INTEND TO SEND THEM INTO COMBAT (guess your okay with that huh). So how many of them skip out of orders to Iraq today and not see consequences? I dont see you demanding their heads on a platter.

    So you are worried about TRAINING that was supposed to occur over 30 years ago? Is the President flying your next flight to California or something? Well then if so, Id definitely be worried.

    There is a word for YOU, its called potstirrer. I did not insult anyone. I simply told them that they basically spit in the face of every NG member from the origin of the guard to today. And you can add yourself to that distinguished list.

    Its documented? Wow. Then start a ruckus and get a vote - change the way things can be done. If you dont like how people, 30 some odd years ago, could make a phone call or call in a favor (or whatever draconian measures youre all up in arms about over joining the National Guard) then write your Congressman and petition them to make a law.

    Nobody really cared then and nobody really cares now. And the American voters told you that in spades in November 04.

    You only use the National Guard so you can lather up to a froth over something that is LONG DEAD (which if you got lost in your froth is President Bush and his service as a NG). I suppose this attitude is what prompted others to post all that stuff about liberals.

    Regardless of the truth you think you know, you werent there (and niether was I) in Vietnam with Sen Kerry nor the Swift Boat crews. So the issue is neutral. I find it laughable youre insistance to rely on documents, especially a fact finder like yourself that is so easy to look the other way in many other recent "documented" issues. Whatever, be an oestrich.

    In case you missed it, and since you asked, I know nothing of the Rep Murtha (as I do not hail from the commonwealth of Pennsylvania myself) until his stunning comments regarding the withdrawal of troops in Iraq, which promptly lost a very wide margin vote. Had he been my Representative, I would prob be thinking how, at the next election, I would want someone who hasnt managed to make a large target of himself. Kind of kills off any political clout he may have worked hard for in the past. You open your mouth so publically, you become a pawn to be used in a media match off.

    Either side is not against throwing mud, but not always doing it, sometimes all it takes is a rumor to cause perceived distress amoungst the government officials of our country, that generates great happiness in places where they would like to see the US fall.

    As a Marine, his accounts of his service are fine by me.
     
  13. Daisy

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    No it isn't. When you sign up for the Texas National Guard in the 70s to avoid the draft it is NOT the same as active service.

    Yet how many are going nowadays since Bush invaded Iraq while we were already spread thin in Afghanistan? What is your point with this anyway - that Bush jumped line to join the branch of service that is the last to go outside was precisely Terry Herrington's point. Thank you.


    My distain is for people who laud Bush's service in the military. Attending (or not) training sessions and politicking is in no way resembles active service.

    Working on a political campaign stateside is NOT the same as guarding a fence in Oklahoma and certainly not the same as "sitting in the jungles" (is that what they did?) of Vietnam.

    Huh? Again with personal insults (I guess, but that was really lame).

    Why? Do you have something against RESERVISTS? That wasn't the topic, so why are you introducing this red herring?
    What is "UA" and why are you shouting?

    #1 I don't know - do you?

    #2 What has that to do with the topic at hand? You seem to have gone off on some unrelated rant.

    I don't see me demanding anyone's head on a platter so why would I demand theirs and what do they have to do with the topic?

    Huh?

    Again, I ask, huh?

    You seem to be name-calling, again.

    Oh, ok - I misunderstood that you actually meant "I hope you never sit and wonder why people dont take you seriously" as a compliment. My mistake.

    "Them"?

    Naturally you meant that gross misrepresentation of actuality as another compliment?

    Such flattery!

    Yes, by your own military. Were the documents citing heroism all lies then?

    Um, do you have a point somewhere in your diatribe?

    Well, that's obviously untrue.

    In that last paragraph, you confirmed what Terry Herrington said in spades. The NG was brought into this to hightlight the irony of Bush's supporters maligning his critc's patriotism and service to his country.

    I'm not the frothy one here. (There's a word for that, for accusing others of what you are doing yourself - such delicious irony).
    Perhaps you should go back and try to understand the point that was being made in that thread.

    No, it isn't. I can read the various accounts, see who contradicts themselves and the records and draw conclusions. I do realize that not every one is capable of that or would do it if they could.

    Documents and testimony are what we have to go on concerning past event. Well, I suppose some people go on their gut feelings and blind loyalty - we each make our choices.
     
  14. Daisy

    Daisy
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    Yet, your admitted ignorance of his accomplishments doesn't deter you in the least from impugning his success?

    And you do understand the reason his comments were considered stunning has been his consistent support of all things hawkish?

    You only vote for mouses? Go alongs to get alongs? Your privilege, of course.

    Au contraire, he now has national recognition which increases his clout.

    Pawn? The man is a politician!

    Are you ok? (Your sentence is a tad incoherent.)

    That will doubtlessly allow him to sleep soundly tonight.
     
  15. emeraldctyangel

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    Poor Daisy
    1. Still dont care about what you perceive to be ultimate truth over National Guard Training from over thirty years ago involving (or not...like I said who cares) President Bush. Would love to see all of your resources you claim to come from my military.

    2. I might be able to see your point of view if he accepted pay and allowances for training he never completed, but I never heard anyone crying over that.

    3. Military service is military service no matter when someone signed up for or it. And let me add, no matter how you signed up for it. Tell you what though, get out YOUR DD214 and lets see what all youve done for our nation.

    Dont have one?

    Then might want to take a step back from that one. My father signed up for the US Navy to avoid being drafted. Does that make him less of a veteran in your eyes? Tell it to him, because he might get a kick out of hearing that you dont think the three tours he spent in Vietnam from 65-68 really amounted anything more than working at a 7-11.

    4. We arent spread thin anywhere. Youre imagining things again. You make it sound like a couple guys with a case of MREs and some water are the only ones out there looking for bin laden. Go back to sleep. Obviously the only thing you understand about the military is that we are really very convenient for you to ignore most of the time, and then become the chant of the day when your buzzard friends circle when there are casualties.

    After you typed all that rant about voting for mice or whatever that was, I wonder if you sat and thought...'wow there is 30, 35, 45 minutes of my life I will never get back again.'

    Sleep soundly yourself. There are plenty of people all over the world tonight staying up until dawn to see that you are safe. Oh, and thanks for the support.

    **UA - Unauthorized Absence. Member of US armed forces absent for duty for 29 days or less. Upon the 30th day, member is designated as a deserter.**
     
  16. ASLANSPAL

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    emerald city said="Sleep soundly yourself. There are plenty of people all over the world tonight staying up until dawn to see that you are safe. Oh, and thanks for the support."

    Oh the humility is deafening

    That scene with Jack Nicholson goes off in my head as Col. Jessup who has set himself up as a
    facist little dictator and does not need to be questioned in a civilian democracy(the people he works for).


    [​IMG]
    Col.Jessup: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.


    similarities? wav.

    A Humor break [​IMG] emerald jessup calls Daisy(Sally)

    http://lars.preben.no/humor/audio/a_few_good_men.mp3

    Emerald it is okay to go to the well for the umptenth time about your service and lets reassure you again...thankyou for your service.

    Sincerely Aslanspal
     
  17. Daisy

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    Condescension noted.

    Then why post about it?

    You never heard anyone crying about that because that was never the issue. Strawman.

    Once again, here is a deliberate misstating of the issue (strawman). The Navy was no place to avoid active service; the Texas National Guard was. Major difference.

    Either you completely misunderstand or you are deliberately misstating my point. Which is it?

    No?
    I could go on and on and on, but I think it's clear that I am not alone in this idea.

    Insults are not arguments. That's a poor tactic, as well as bad sportsmanship.

    Ok, I'll explain - you stated that you would not vote for someone who spoke out on an issue and thus became a target. A person who will not speak out for fear of becoming a target is like a mouse. Is that clear now?

    Thank you.
     
  18. emeraldctyangel

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    There are medications readily available for your television addiction A-pal. Real life - get one.

    Daisy: Yawn. Didnt read any of that, but did want you to know it is 2006, not 2003, 2004 and well, things really changed over the course of 2 months around here, so it might be a little tough to understand the monumentous changes that occur in 3 years. I really just glanced through all that long windedness of yours and determined it was just another long page of attacks and hair splitting. Send me your PO Box and Ill send you some more hairs to split.

    Yet another hour of your life youll never get back. And to think you could be spending it so much more wisely than painting everything with such a broad brush in the quest of proving yourself right, when in the end, you just look engulfed in flames. Pity. God Bless.
     
  19. emeraldctyangel

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    And how you do.

    Im sure the rest of the board members are skipping this one. Add me to that list too. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. carpro

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    I find it odd that, while the vast majority of Vietnam veterans hold no animus for those who served in the National Guard and the Reserve, liberals do.

    But, then we have to remember liberals hated every person in any kind of military uniform during the Vietnam era.

    But, now they claim they support the troops,but want them to fail at their mission, and it appears the only Vietnam veterans they have a problem with are National Guardsmen. The rest of us killers, murderers, rapists, and arsonists have magically been absolved of our past crimes and their scorn is reserved purely for National Guardsmen of that era.

    Strange... :confused:

    As for Murtha, he seems to have forgotten what it means to be a Marine. This is the second time he has recommended a cut and run strategy. He has either been surrounded by liberals for too many years, or maybe he wasn't all he purported to be in the past.
     

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