Keswick Movement - History?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by annsni, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,138
    Likes Received:
    364
    Can you guys give me good links or info on the Keswick Movement? In our women's group, we're reading Noel Piper's Faithful Women and their Extraordinary God and it mentions that Lilias Trotter and her mom followed this movement and I'd like to have some info about it when people ask. I figured you guys might be better able to help than me going on a wild goose chase on google! :) Thanks!
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    The former outline was a very good overview of this movement. The charts were especially helpful.

    However, I think all positions presented in the outline portrayed erroneous views.

    1. Sanctification is grounded in the new birth not justification
    2. Sanctification is progressive as illustrated in the Reformed chart
    3. Sanctification is not synonymous with either baptism or filling of the Spirit.
    4. Santification or spiritual growth requires both negative and postive aspects for learning process

    The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with individual application or experience but with institutional accreditation as "the house of God" as a plural "you" viewed as a body united in faith and practice.

    The filling of the Spirit is not continuous but intermittant. To be filled means volutionally determined submission to leadership of the Spirit. All times when Christians are not determinately in submission to the Spirit they are being carnally led. God works "all things" ultimately for the good of the Christian.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Nov 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2011
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    HP: Says who? Do you have a Scripture Biblicist, that would substantiate your opinion??

    Who says that intermittently volitionally determined leadership is nothing more than the life of a carnal Christian at best (if in reality a carnal Christian exists)

    Is God working in a believers life when he sins? Sin in the believers life works for the good of what?

    Your post raises a multitude of red flags IMHO.
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ann, as I recall it was about the same time as the revival in America, the greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen or felt, but took place in England. If I am not mistaken, some of the same evangelists that were active in America were also active in that movement as well.

    It was the study of these revival movements and the men and women involved that led me to examine deeply my own theological opinions. When such a movement has such a clear and unmistakable impact upon society, I had to conclude that God desired to show me some truths by the study of those movements. The truths that God so evidently attested to by the outpouring of His Spirit were evidenced by the changed lives and the impact on society at large. I for one believe that such a study as you are considering might well be a life changing study for you as well as it was for me.

    A great start into understanding the beginnings of those revival movements might well be Charles Finney' autobiography. That book grabbed my attention and peaked my own interest into the thjeological truths that helped shape those revivals. An interesting and life changing study for myself indeed!

    A word to the wise. Shut out the naysayers, and their names are legion. The devil has does his work with misinformation concerning these movements. Read the sources themselves and NOT what others say about them. One Scripture comes to mind. "Study to show THYSELF approved unto God...." Study the direct sources and NOT the detractors. Pray that God might reveal truth. Seek TRUTH alone and let the chips fall where the may.:thumbsup:
     
    #6 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2011
  6. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,138
    Likes Received:
    364
    Thanks HP. I know the women (most of whom are not well educated in theology - many are newer believers) will ask me about what the Keswick Movement is and I want to be able to answer them with an educated answer! LOL
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tell them I said you are most likely not a good source to ask about it. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    Anyone who has been a Christian for any length of time knows by experience they are not always following the revealed will of God or following the leadership of the Holy Spirit in every matter. A person who does not recognize this is simply a lost and deceived person.

    1. To be filled with the Spirit is a command (Eph. 5:18 - imperative mode). Something that is a matter of nature needs no command.

    2. We have records of saved people sinning. Paul and Barnabas got into a fight over Mark. Peter did not follow the Holy Spirit in regard to Judaizers at Antioch, etc., etc.



    Don't confuse God INDWELLING with God LEADING. Don't confuse God working in believers even when they are sinning with God working in believers when they are not willing/igornantly sinning.

    You comments are what really raise red flags far more then my post.
     
  9. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,138
    Likes Received:
    364
    LOL - How about a Cliff Note version? Keswick Movement in a tweetable sentence? :D Something even I can handle!!??
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: Sorry Biblicist, but you know not of whereof you speak on this issue. Since when is sharp contention 'sin?'

    Sure Peter was wrong, and when confronted obviously made necessary changes. How do you know his former actions were 'sin?' Do you know the thoughts, understanding and intentions of Peters heart so well that God has appointed you his judge?

    I am not saying that many if not most declaring the name of Christ have not sinned subsequent to their salvation experience. What does that have to do with the issue of sanctification? Even if one living in a state of sanctification sins, does that mean that they never realized a continuous sanctified state apart from sin? If there is never a person that has lived a sanctified life (something I would believe is a completely untrue and false assertion) would that prove that none should seek and that none share able to gain such an experience? No way. Just because none have ever reached a certain mountain top, does that in any way suggest that none can or that none will, or that to reach the top is impossible? I think not.

    Who ever said that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a matter of nature? Whoever said that knows not whereof he speaks either. The book entitled "Deeper Experience of Famous Christians' might prove to be an interesting read for you, if you have not read it already.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    HP: Just keep it short.:laugh:

    One of my children gave me that advice when I was asked to speak one time.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  12. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,138
    Likes Received:
    364

    Yep. I don't want to go off on a big tangent speaking about this movement but want to understand the theology of the woman we are studying. :)
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    44
    Here you go, Annsni:

    Robert Delnay, "What Happened to Keswick?" Faith Pulpit March 2002

     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    The Baptism in the Spirit in every reference in the gospels is always future tense in anticipation. In Acts 1:5 the future application is limited to "not many days hence."

    After Pentecost the next reference is found in Acts 11:15-16 as a commentary on what happened in the house of Corneilius in chapter 10. However, the nearest antecedent that Peter could give for what happened in Acts 10 was "at the beginning" or on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Moreover, the Old Testament occurrence of immersion in the Shikinah glory was the well known established public accreditation of the house of God which occurred but once at the beginning of each newly built house of God. The occurrence with the Gentiles in Acts 10 was in keeping with its Old Testament design to publicl accredit God's House. Neither Peter or the Jewish members with him from the church at Jerusalem would have baptized them apart from God publicly accrediting GENTILES as worthy to be received into the "house of God" or the church as members of EQUAL standing with Jews. The fact that Peter was called in on the red carpet at the congregation in Jerusalem to explain why he went to Gentiles and baptized them demonstrates that such a public accreditation by God was necessary.

    The fact that Peter gave as the closet reference point "at the beginning" fir what happened at the house of Corneilius is a telling statement. If this was a repeated action with each individual since Pentecost as the Keswick and Pentecostal theology demands then Peter would not have had to say "at the beginning" but rather "SINCE the beginning" would have been the proper reference.

    Furthermore, throughout the history of the book of Acts it is never mentioned again.

    The Baptism in the Spirit is public accreditation of the House of God and the New Tesament house of God is a PLURAL YOU consisting of living stones built upon to a spiritual house - 1 Pet. 2:5.

    Just as water baptism as Biblical essentials to make it scriptural baptism so does baptism in the Spirit.

    1. The Right Administrator - Christ not the Holy Spirit - "he shall...with"
    2. The Right element - The Spirit not the congregational body of Christ
    3. The Right subject - Plural "you" - the house of God
    4. The Right design - public accreditation.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    HP: If you are serious about desiring the truth of this movement, what source are you going to trust to explain their theology? If God desired to show you some truth, would you follow Him no matter where the truth would lead you into or out of? Is truth your honest goal, or could it be wanting to have a short answer ready? If you are seeking a source for a quick answer, the truth will pass you by. Truth must be sought out as fine gold or silver and with your whole heart and best efforts with an open heart for what God may have yet to reveal to our hearts.

    Parroting others opinions may be quick and easy, but nothing will take the place of sincere diligent study before God, seeking Him alone to reveal truth to your heart.
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    Ann, I would not give two cents for HP's view on this topic. It is wrong and seriously wrong.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    It was so sharp they could no longer work together. It caused division between them so sharp they had to part ways.


    Your response does not make much sense. Peter sinned as a saved person and required rebuke for that sin. Don't have to read his thoughts as Paul explicitly says he was wrong and so was Barnabas!




    What you say here is totally and wholly absurd. Not One Christian has ever or will ever live above sin. Those who think they can are subject to speculation concerning whether they have even had a genuine salvation experience at all. At best, they have no Biblical understanding of what sin is or they would not even make such a foolish boast or invent such a foolish doctrine.

    There is not one righteous man (except Christ) who has ever lived or shall live on earth that sinneth not. Those who make such a claim are not merely ignornant of God's Word but have either redefined the standard of righteousnes or redefined the meaning of sin. Sin begins with a wrong motive for whatsoever you do, if it is not "for the glory of God" then it is sin as sin is coming "short of the glory of God" in whatsoever you do.



    I got a better book to read on the subject - the Bible!
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Biblicist, you are to be commended for the manner in which you disagree with another. Your remarks, considering our disagreements, are certainly kinder than so many I have received on this list in the past by others. Thank you.:thumbsup:
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    HP: So your disagreements with myself have been sharp as well. Does that prove either of us have, in reality, sinned???

    If it is true that you have sinned in your contentions, stop it.:thumbsup:
     
    #20 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2011

Share This Page

Loading...