"kill" or "murder"?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by UZThD, May 18, 2005.

  1. UZThD

    UZThD
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    Romans 13: 9

    "Thou shalt not kill." KJV
    "Do not murder." NIV

    Which translation is right and why?
     
  2. webdog

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    I believe it is "Do not murder". God told the Israelites to kill to take the land promised them.
     
  3. Artimaeus

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    They are both right. Each translation uses words that can have many connotations. You cannot just take this verse out of the Bible and say a word like kill or murder means whatever you want it to mean. Since there are places in the Bible where God told people to kill someone then, it cannot be that all killing is wrong. Killing someone when circumstance warrant it is not murder. Murder is killing someone when the circumstance do not warrant it. Which of these fits the character of God as portrayed in the Bible? Which idea fits the philosphical notion portrayed outside of the Bible in many popular views of Christianity.
     
  4. UZThD

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    Can both be right in this verse?

    Which fits the text where Paul cites the commandment? What does that commandment mean in the Decalogue?

    If the commandment is general and means "do not ever kill," how could God tell Saul and others to kill?

    But if the commandment means "murder," then, how can both be right for this verse?

    One word may mean different things, but that does not require that Paul here does....does it?
     
  5. Logos1560

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    The same Greek word translated "kill" at Romans 13:9 is also found at Matthew 19:18 where
    the KJV has "Thou shalt do no murder."
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Every time I open my mouth, I "kill". NO, not my breath, but millions of microscopic organism die.

    Murder has a willful intent in our vocabulary today. Kill is less offensive (in war we kill Iraqis, for food we kill cattle/hogs) to our modern mind.

    The intent of the Ex 20 passage is not the "killing" for sacrifice, enemies, food, etc. It was "murder".

    For the 21st Century reader, Do Not Murder is much clearer in intent.
     
  7. UZThD

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    My son back from Iraq has nightmares and PTSD from his killing there...so sad. He soon goes for 6-9 mos of in residence therapy.
     
  8. robycop3

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    I shall pray for his recovery.

    My dad had the same prob after the Korean War. He was the feeder, the man who dropped the round into the barrel of a mortar. GOD freed him after he was saved. God made him realize that he was acting in defense of his fellow soldiers, carrying out the lawful orders of his government.

    The best therapy for your son would be an abiding faith in Jesus, trusting Him to set all matters right in His good time. If he IS a Christian already, a close, Spirit-filled reading about the wars in the Bible, along with a reminder that there's no amount of sin too big for JESUS to forgive, will have quite a positive effect.

    While "kill" may have been acceptable in 1611, its meaning to most English-speakers now is to take the life of anything or anyone for any reason, including accidentally. The anti-death-penalty wackos misuse the verse from the KJV time and again.

    While this use is OK in the KJV, it would be incorrect in any modern English version."The times, they are a'changin'".

    [ May 28, 2005, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: robycop3 ]
     
  9. icthus

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    When God says in Exodus 20:13, "thou shall not kill" (KJV), this is the incorrect way to render the Hebrew. The Hebrew word used here, is not "harag", which is rarely used for premeditated killing; but, "ratsach", which is used for premeditated taking of life, and therefore correctly rendered in English as "murder"
     
  10. robycop3

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    Ichthus: When God says in Exodus 20:13, "thou shall not kill" (KJV), this is the incorrect way to render the Hebrew. The Hebrew word used here, is not "harag", which is rarely used for premeditated killing; but, "ratsach", which is used for premeditated taking of life, and therefore correctly rendered in English as "murder"

    Let me add a little, Ichthus, from what a rabbi wrote to me several years ago.

    The usual Hebrew word for kill as for food is "shachat", while "muwth" is often used for killing in battle,(such as David killing Goliath) as is "harag", which you mentioned. "Nakah" is used for killing by smiting with a club or sword, whether man or beast, whether murder or battle. And he said basically what YOU did about "ratsach". He reminded me that under the Israeli govt. at the time of the judges, a killer was presumed guilty until proven innocent, and therefore this person was called a ratsach whether he/she killed accidentally or not.
     

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