King or Messiah of What?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by drfuss, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. drfuss

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    Micah 5:2 says that "the One to be Ruler of Israel" would come from Bethlelem. Jesus came from Bethlehem.

    Matthew 1:21 says that Jesus will save His People from their sins in telling Joseph about Jesus. Nothing is said about a physical kingdom.

    Also, I Tm. 1:15 says that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Again, nothing about a physical kingdom.

    When asked by Pilate if He was king of the Jews, Jesus answered "It is as you say" in Matt. 27:11, Luke 23:3, and Mark 15:2. Jesus acknowledged that He was "the ruler (King) of Israel". In Micah, "the ruler of Israel" was predicted to come.

    John 18: 33-37 says the following: "Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.".


    I have heard many times that Micah 5:2 refers to a future physical kingdom of Israel. Yet, Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world.

    Does Micah 5:2 refer to the Messiah ruling a physical Kingdom of Israel or a spiritual kingdom of Israel and of believers? Or Both?

    Am I missing something?
     
  2. preacher4truth

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    Awesome questions.

    Can I study that all out? I've got to know now. I'll get back to you later on that.

    Should be interesting.
     
  3. glfredrick

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    By birthright as a human (from both lines, Mary and Joseph) and by deity, Jesus was both/and, not either/or, the son of David who would inherit the throne forever.

    When He rode into Jerusalem on what we now call Palm Sunday, the people understood exactly what He was saying, and that Jesus had a rightful claim to the throne if that is what He desired. That was not His goal, however, which confused the people of Jerusalem, and which eventually led to their cries to crucify.
     
  4. drfuss

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    Yes, I agree.
    But my question is: Does Micah 5:2 refer to the Messiah ruling a physical Kingdom of Israel or a spiritual kingdom of Israel and of believers? Or Both?
     
  5. preacher4truth

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    That's why I bowed out to answer you, until I take time to study it through.

    But what are your answers on this?
     
  6. drfuss

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    This question came to me while studying for the Christmas Bible Study lesson for Dec. 19TH. I had not considered it before because I was always told Micah 5:2 was referring to a future Israel physical kingdom.

    However, considering why Jesus came into the world (as indicated in Matthew 1:21 and I Tim. 1:15) and Jesus' response to Pilate (if Jesus was king of the Jews), I believe Micah is talking about a spiritual kingdom.

    Also in Matthew 11:2-6, John the Baptist ask if Jesus was the one to come (the promised Messiah). Jesus answered in the affirmative saying that the blind see, the lame walk, leppers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. There was nothing in Jesus' response about a physical kingdom.

    I believe Micah is talking about a spiritual kingdom, and not a physical kingdom. I asked the question on here because I thought I might be missing something.
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    I see. These illustrations, blind, lame, lepers, deaf, dead, are all physical illustrations, things He had actually done. How are these not physical in nature, or how do they, being physical in nature, point only to an Spiritual Kingdom?

    Also, do you believe in a physical Reign of Christ, here on earth?
     
  8. drfuss

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    Okay, I have not been very clear, sorry about that. When I said spiritual kingdom, I mean not a physical kingdom of Israel, i.e. not a physical government, etc. When I said spiritual kingdom, it included the physical things listed by Jesus in response to John the Baptist, as well as saving people from their sins.

    Do I believe in a physical Reign of Christ, here on earth? Probably.
    However, that does not preclude Micah from actually talking about the first coming of Christ.

    Concerning future prophetic events, I do not hold firm positions. Over the past 50 years, I have seen sure thing interpretations of scripture change due to changing world conditions. This has resulted in me softening my position on prophetic events.

    I believe there will probably be a physical reign of Christ on the earth.
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    Well, I think we like to spiritualize things we do not understand, or we spiritualize things because we don't have a clear picture, thus, "that must be spiritual." Each of us probably do this somewhere in our eschatology. Thank God our eschatological views do not determine our eternal destinies. We are looking through a dark glass now, but then? Face to face.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ was raised again with a physical, flesh and bones body, in which He did present Himself to the disciples.

    I do not think that we will be some spiritual mist floating out there somewhere, but we shall be alive here on the new earth, for all eternity, in glorified bodies. Someone said we will be alive then even more alive than we are now. I think that is a great assessment. We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    But back to your OP, I have to go check that out. It's very interesting and worthy of thought.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. Old Union Brother

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    Ok , this is how I view these illustrations. When I was a sinner I was blind...I could not see the things of God, I was lame I couldn't walk in his ways, I was deaf I couldn't hear the words of God, I was a leper I had the worse disease of all sin, and I was dead until he resurrected me to walk in the newness of life. His kingdom is spiritual. Even though Christ performed all of the miracles naturally it was preparing the way for the spiritual Kingdom to come.
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    You just hit the nail on the head brother.

    But, He did do these things in the physical realm, correct? But only to point to a "spiritual" realm? Or, to allude to both the spiritual, and physical, i.e. we shall be both, spiritually and physically whole, or perfect, throughout eternity?

    Great insight, thank you!
     
    #11 preacher4truth, Dec 10, 2010
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  12. Old Union Brother

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    He did do all of these things in the physical realm. I think that it is impossible for us to comprehend all of the purpose that he had when he performed the miracles. I do believe it was to show how that there would be no afflictions in eternity and that we would be made perfect in the morning. I’m not sure about a physical kingdom here on earth. I’ll defer to the scripture:
    Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
     
  13. kyredneck

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    who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; Col 1:13

    His kingdom is not of this world, and it is now.
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    Brother, I hear what you are saying. Luke 17:20 has been used so many times as a proof text to lay claim that the kingdom is only some magical kingdom within us only. Yet there are many other texts that prove His kingdom to be a literal physical kingdom. If it were only "spiritual" there would be no need whatsoever for He, nor for us, to be raised in a glorified, physical body. As His first coming was physical, and prophesied as such, so also shall His second be physical. Many passages speak of the kingdom being physical. The kingdom the pharisees were looking for was for selfish reasons and motives, the real problem lay on the inside, taking a peak inwardly proved they were not of nor in His kingdom, for they misunderstood what the kingdom would be, and to whom it belonged, and assumed they were to be given this kingdom at their demand. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13. It was not within them, they were not believers.

    This was literally a rebuke to the Pharisees, who were demanding to see the Kingdom, in that they could not see it, because they did not believe, and this was an indictment upon them; it had been preached, they heard it, it was in them, they did not believe it, they did not receive it. This showed they had a spiritual problem, not seeing and believing all the things they had heard and witnessed.

    In Acts 1:6-8 the disciples asked if He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. At this point, we do not see the disciples holding to a spiritualized view of the kingdom, but, they, as we, were fully expecting a physical Kingdom as has been prophesied in the OT Scriptures, and Jesus says these things are under the authority of The Father as to the times it will take place.
     
    #14 preacher4truth, Dec 11, 2010
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  15. glfredrick

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    The gist of Christ's kingdom is that it is both physical and spiritual.

    The problem of Christ's kingdom is that people expected the physical aspect to come in a different manner than what Jesus actually brought.

    The people of Israel and Jerusalem were SO disappointed when the rightful heir to the physical throne did not oust Herod and Rome. They called for His crucifixion and when offered a choice, took "Jesus" Barabbas -- a political seditionist -- instead of "Jesus" Messiah who desired to found His physical kingdom with a new line of royal subjects, persons who would NEVER stray from His service or His kingdom. They would not stray, and they would be the most loyal servants because He did for them what no earthly king could ever do -- replace their sinful hearts!

    They, and we, still really don't get that part... They should have crowned Jesus true King in a physical sense by believing in Him and accepting His gift of permanent entrance into His kingdom, but instead "His own rejected Him..." They did not have to sit Him on the actual physical throne in Israel in order for He to be true King. They had to take themselves off of the throne on which they sat, and let Him be King and all else after that would have worked out.

    What actually happened when Israel rejected Christ was that the seat of the throne was destroyed -- almost forever -- and until the last day when He will inhabit it once and forever.
     
  16. drfuss

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    Interesting discussions.

    But back to my original question:

    Does Micah 5:2 refer to the Messiah ruling a physical Kingdom of Israel or a kingdom in the hearts of Israel and of believers? Or Both?
     
  17. RAdam

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    You are mistaking physical for natural. In the bible, God often uses natural things to picture spiritual things. In fact, this is the only way to make the bible make any sense. People often think that spiritual things are less real than natural things. The reverse is true. Paul said the things which are seen are temporal, the things which are not seen are eternal.

    In John 6 the people wanted to take Jesus by force and make Him a king. That's how they thought of Him: as some Davidic king who would liberate them from the Romans. They had misunderstood the OT prophecies and took the natural illustrations without understanding how they pointed to greater spiritual realities. Jesus' response was to go away into a mountain alone. He wanted nothing to do with that. He had a greater mission and a greater throne awaiting Him than a natural one in earthly Jerusalem.

    Prophecies of Jesus ruling over Israel are pointing to what He is now and what He always will be - King in Zion. Now only His disciples see Him as King. But, the time is coming when every knee will bow and every tongue confess. The Lord will be manifested as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will rule, not invisibly in the hearts of His people as He does now, but openly in the New Jerusalem. The tabernacle of God will once again be with man, only this time for eternity. The Jews missed this great truth. They missed the clear lesson of the OT prophets, particularly Daniel, that the Kingdom of God is not like the kingdoms of this world.
     
  18. percho

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    I believe this would be more correct looking at it all.

    Young's Literal Colossians 1:12,13 Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light, who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,

    Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    When is this?
     
  19. RAdam

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    If the Son if reigning, and we have been translated (past tense) into His reign, He must have a kingdom and we must be part of it presently.
     
  20. percho

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    I believe this to be a good question.

    How did God the Father make the elect meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints?

    Acts 26:18 says the same. To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    Turned from the darkness of this age to the light of the age to come.

    1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    In the context of this verse are those in the church flesh and blood? Is this not resurrection?
     
    #20 percho, Dec 15, 2010
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