Kingdom Exclusion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lacy Evans, Sep 7, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0

    Thjplgvp,

    I'll try my best to answer these very good questions.

    First of all let me say that I have been believing and teaching this doctrine for many years now. It is a truth that finally answered all my questions about Salvation, works, and holiness. I struggled for a long time, as a Charismatic who believed you could lose your salvation. Then I negan studying with a group of friends and could not answer the questions thay had and the scriptures that they showed me that prove Eternal Security of the believer.

    So I just figured there was more that I wasn't seeing. Turns out I was right. I stumbled into some books (Baptist and Brethren) by GH Lang, Robert Govett, DM Panton, SS Craig, WF Roadhouse and others.

    See: http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline.htm

    Suddenly all the OT types fell into place.
    1)The children of Israel, saved by the passover blood.
    2)1st step of ocbedience - Baptism in the Red Sea (Separation).
    3)Then the faithful (Joshua and Caleb) entered the Kingdom but the unfaithful (yet blood covered) were excluded.

    Even Moses missed it!

    I will try to answer your questions individually. I am typing slow though so be patient with me.

    -lacy
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely talking about the JSOC (Bema), and not the GWT. I am only talking about blood-bought, Eternally secure, once-saved-always-saved Christians.

    As to your statement about reward?

    2 Corinthians 5:9-119 Wherefore we labour,that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


    This says good or bad.

    More Later, gotta go to the store for my wife..

    Lacy
     
    #2 Lacy Evans, Sep 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you would, clarify this question please. I'm not sure I understand.

    The word "salvation" must be rightly divided (Acts 27:31)

    A Christian has already been "obedient" to the call of salvation (in the eternal sense) when he obeyed the gospel and believed uopn Christ and his finished work.

    Afterwards an eternally-secure Christian ought to obey the call to salvation in the second sense. (Which is salvation from chastening) Rom 11:21-22, Gal 6:7-9, Phil 2:12,)

    The first salvation is blood alone. It is based solely upon Christs finished work. It is a legal transaction. Christ's blood alone for our sin.

    The second (so great salvation Heb2:1-3) is based upon our works, suffering, and obedience sanctified by Christ's blood. (Blood and water -John 3)

    Both can be seen in 1 Peter 1:18-23.

    Lacy

    (More to come)
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Lacy, a real Christian is a Christ-follower -- someone who has been born again by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. The Christian is saved be cause he or she believed (not just intellectual acknowledgement, which even the demons can do -- see James, but a total life trust and dependancy) on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    At that point the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian. See Romans 8:9. If someone does not have the Holy Spirit, that person does not belong to Christ.

    No person who belongs to Christ is going to spend one nanosecond in hell. Period. He took care of all sin on the cross. It is now a matter of belief which is the key to salvation, not a matter of living a good life. After one is saved, one can become a more or less difficult child for the Holy Spirit to raise, but He will finish the job (Phil 1:6) and that job is to conform each of us believers to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30). Those who are 'easier' children of God to raise, who trust and obey and show forth Christ's character in the situations in which God has placed them, will have earned rewards. Those who do not have not. But none will miss out on an eternity with the Lord, which is heaven.

    Your thousand year thing is a purgatory-type teaching and belongs in the Roman Catholic church, not in a Bible-based theology.

    By the way, there was no baptism in the Red Sea. If you recall, the Israelites when through on dry land. It is the Egyptians who were rather thoroughly 'baptised'!


    Edit: my husband just corrected me on the baptism issue. In 1 Cor. 10:2, it states the Israelites were baptized 'into Moses' "in the cloud and in the sea." My apologies. However the baptism into Christ is a baptism into His death (Romans 6:3) which is a very different matter.
     
    #4 Helen, Sep 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that the normal definition of the phrases "The Kingdom", "The kingdom of his dear Son", "The Kingdom of God", and "The Kingdom of Heaven" is Christ's future millennial Earthly Kingdom.

    (There are a couple of exceptions where they are used in a more universal sense to mean everything under God's control, but normally the KOG/KOH was the literal messianic Kingdom expected by the Jews.)

    How might a Christian miss the Kingdom?

    1) By not suffering for Christ:Rom 8:16,17, 2 Thess 1:5, 2Tim 2:12

    2) By committing and continuing certain gross sins.1 Cor 6:7-10, Gal 5:16-21, Eph 5:1-7, )

    3) By failing to overcoming self and sin: Rev 2:11, Rev 3:5, 3:11-12, 3:21, 2Pet2:20-22,

    4)By being unmerciful:Matt 5:7, Matt 6:14-15, Matt 18:33-35, Jas 2:13

    5) By not continuing in the faith: Acts 14:22, John 8:31,32, John 15:4-6, Matt 10:38, Luke 22:28,29, 2 Peter 1:11.

    That ought to keep you busy for a while. Just a challenge though: Read these verses and consider the possibility (that when they tell a believer to be good because the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom) that the verses mean exactly what they say.

    Lacy
     
  6. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    23
    So you do not believe the following... 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    It would seem the good or the bad is a reference by Paul back to 1Cor 3. It would also seem contradictory to scripture for the Lord to tell us our sins will be remembered no more and then judge us for them after he died for them.

    It would seem more likely that the good and the bad are works that are committed by believers in the name of Christ, while some are done for the right purposes some are also done for the wrong purposes but all are done and all are to be rewarded with either perishable (wood hay and stubble) or none-perishable substances (Gold, silver and precious stones). Did you ever wonder where your crown is going to come from that you lay at the feet of Jesus? It will be made up from your rewards for your labor in the Christian life in and through the grace of God. You will either had a crown in heaven or you won't but you will still be saved.

    My friend you have been taught incorrectly either Jesus died for all my sin or he died in vain there is no partial salvation. Not by works of righteousness that we have done...

    Titus 3:5-8 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    thjplgvp
    :type:
     
  7. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Have you read GH Lang (Brethren), Robert Govett (Brethren), DM Panton (Baptist/Brethren), SS Craig (Presbyterian), RE Neighbour (Baptist), or WF Roadhouse (Baptist)?

    Lacy
     
  8. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Nope. But I've read the Bible.
     
  9. Not_hard_to_find

    Not_hard_to_find
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, Helen. Amen! Thanks for the bottom line affirmation.
     
  10. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother, you haven't had time to consider all that I posted.

    How exactly will a man's "work" be burned? What loss could he possibly suffer? Aren't his "sins remembered no more"? Why would he lose his crown for sins that are "under the blood"?

    Of course I am being sarcastic, but in a nice way, I hope.

    Then why would he ever chasten us at all if they are all "remembered no more"? understand that i am talking about chastening and not loss of salvation.

    I agree with most of this. But a lost crown is a lost Kingdom-reign. what, after all is a crown. And what happens in the terrible event that we hane no crown to lay at his feet. What is the "reward" for the "bad deeds"?

    Please look at the verses I provided. I worked for about two hours typing to explain my position to you.

    God chastens us for those very sins that are indeed "under the blood" in an absolute and eternal sense. Why punish us at all? Because that is what a good father does.

    Here is my challenge (Other than to invest a little time studying the scriptures I gave you, and perhaps the free online books that I provided the liknks to) Prove from scripture that God will not chasten us at the JSOC, that chastisement ends with death and death makes everything ok. You won't find it.

    Amen! Heirs (like Esau, if we despise our birthright)

    or perhaps Jacob if we suffer


    Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Lacy
     
    #10 Lacy Evans, Sep 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2006
  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were the only one.



    Pr 18:13 -
    He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.



    Lacy
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a whole bookshelf of Bible commentaries written by these men so if you know more than them, I'd like to buy your commentaries please.

    Lacy

    Bottom line, to compare your Bible knowledge with men you are absolutely unfamiliar with is presumptuous at best. How will they hear without a preacher.

    lacy

    I'm trying to be nice here!!!
     
  13. Not_hard_to_find

    Not_hard_to_find
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do not believe comparing the number of Bible commentaries we each have on our shelves has any bearing on what we believe. In addition to our commentaries, we both have access to libraries, public and in our churches.

    I could cite specific churches which have a good deal of information on the web available for study, but that doesn't change my views regarding misinterpretation. I just didn't believe it would be advantageous to post point/counterpoint when my goal was to affirm Helen's post.

    Back to the original post, I have no questions, therefore require no answers.
     
  14. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ones you don't read REALLY have no bearing on what you believe huh?

    I wasn't comparing at all. I was just making the point that you (or Helen)don't even know their arguments. I guarantee that most of what you believe you learned from a teacher. There is nothing wrong with expanding your library. Scoffers wouldn't even look through Galileo's new invention, the telescope, because they didn't believe there could be anything else out there but what they had been taught to see.

    Don't be scared to take a look.

    lacy
     
  15. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lacy the problem is though if someone takes an honest and sincere look at these matters the evidence is overwhelming and undeniable, which means that folks are going to have to drop traditional church teachings. And that can be a very trying and uncomfortable position and Christians like their comfort and no trials.

    As a side note when I "stumbled" across these teachings, as Lacy said, I thought the man I was reading had lost his marbles. I thought this is the most bizarre stuff I have ever read. Come to find out this man that I was reading said the same thing about the preacher that he sat under in Tennessee.

    The problem is these teachings have been dropped from the churches, because these teachings won't fill the pews and if we don't fill the pews we can't build bigger buildings and have bowling alleys and coffee shops and movie theaters and what nots.
     
  16. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you have any Scripture to back up this 1000 yr thing you are teaching?
     
  17. Rex77

    Rex77
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    2
    1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
    1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


    Even after the judgement seat of Christ there is only praise of God
    after loss of rewards, not bannishment from the kingdom.
     
  18. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rex, if your post was suppose to answer my question I do not see the answer.

    Paul is saying that he knows of no sin in his own life that has not been confessed, but that Christ will have the last word. Read the whole chapter context is everything.
     
  19. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, his scripture was not in support of Kingdom Exclusionism.

    -----

    Now, having heard this Kingdom Theology expounded upon (Lacy does a pretty good job), I came away amazed at how well this doctrine was supported scripturally.

    However, I do not believe that the conclusions are the only conclussions out there (or out here). And I personally do not believe in Kingdom Exclusionism.

    But, of course if this theology is true - a thousand years in 'purgatory' would be better than a thousand years in the kingdom for those that are then cast into hell . . . Honestly. I would rather a thousand years of getting right for eternity than to have a thousand years getting ready for hell.
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    The difference between Kingdom Exclusion and Purgatory is like the difference between the Lord's Supper and the Mass. We don't teach that a disobedient Christian gets to spend a thousand years paying for his sins, those sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. The only thing left is temporal rewards for things done in the flesh, which we are told plainly that we will recieve at the judgment seat of Christ. Losing the prize of the high calling (reigning with Jesus in the kingdom, not being saved) results in 'suffering loss'. Jesus doesn't allow us to kick cans dejectedly down the streets of gold, he removes all things that offend (matt 13:41).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...