Kingdom of God/heaven

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Sep 16, 2004.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Good Morning!

    I decide to start new topic about the kingdom of God/heaven. Because, I have been debate at 'Shall ever a Christian going to hell?', and 'judgment seat of Christ part 2' lately.

    Premill teaches 'kingdom of God/heaven' means millennial kingdom.

    Some Premil/Disp saying 'kingdom of God' & 'kingdom of heaven' are different meaning. Premills saying, 'kingdom of heaven' are for the Jews only according to the Gospel of Matthew. Premill saying, 'kingdom of heaven' is for the Church.

    Does Christ was actaul saying on them? No.

    Both are same meaning.

    While I am studying on kingdom of God/heaven. I find a good passage in the Bible discuss about the kingdom of God/heaven. I think this passage might help us to understand the meaning of kingdom of God/heaven.

    Later, in the coming days, I will discuss more details on kingdom of God/heaven.

    I find a good passage about the kingdom of God/heaven in Matt. 19:16-26. I think Matt. 19:16-26 might help us to undersatnd the meaning of kingdom of God/heaven.

    Verse 16 tells us, when a young man came to Christ, he asked him, 'Good teacher, what good things should I do, that I may HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?' .

    A young man does not ask Christ about millennial kingdom. Because he never hear the teaching of millennial kingdom. That teaching was not yet exist till 1,900 years later. Millennial kingdom was not what in young man's mind. A young man wanted to know what he should to do so, he could have eternal life.

    Then, Christ said to him, "...but IF thou wilt ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEEEEEEEEEP the commandements." - vs. 17

    A young man asked Christ, which commandment? Christ said to him, do not sins (speak of the Ten Commandments) - vs. 18-19.

    Then, a young man asked Christ, all these things he have in his youth life, what things he missed? - vs. 20

    Then, Christ told him, "IF thou wilt be perfect(to be growing, mature & completed), Go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and COME and FOLLOW me." - vs. 21.

    Christ tells him, if he want to be perfect, then he have to surrender and give up his things and give them to poor, and come to FOLLOW Him.

    Next verse 22 tells us, a young man upsetted, he turn away from Christ. Because, he does not want to lose his own things, he wanted to keep all his things what he have.

    Then, Christ told to his disciples, "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. And AGAIN I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into THE KINGDOM OF GOD." - vs. 23-24. Christ said, impossible for a rich man to enter eternal life, because he refused to surrender his life and to FOLLOW Christ.

    I understand what Christ's point on a camel. The character of camel, camel's attitude shows no complain, accept to carry heavy burden, it shows of humble. A rich man's character shows, that he have his own pride, selfish, not want to surrender all things what he have. It obivously speak of a rich man is not saved, he cannot enter the kingdom of God/heaven, that mean he is already in the hell now.

    When disciples heard of him, they said, "Who then can be saved?" - vs. 25.

    Christ answered to them, "With men this impossible; but WITH GOD all things are possible." - vs. 26

    His point was, working with men are impossible, because all men are sinners, easy to failed. But, with God, all are possible. Because God never fail us. Same with Heb. 11:6 tells us, without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    Nothing find any verse in the Bible saying that 'kingdom of God/heaven' speak of future millennial kingdom. Because of none of any passage in the Bible mentioned kingdom of God/heaven is 'a thousand years'.

    Often, in the Bible mentioned, 'kingdom of God/heaven'. These are speak of God's things, heavenly things, and of course, it speak of eternality.

    Later in the coming days, I will discuss much more on kingdom of God/heaven with verses.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Deafposttrib,

    A word study of "Kingdom of God" yields 68 exact matches most of which appear in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts.

    Likewise, a word study of "Kingdom of Heaven" yields 31 exact matches all of which appear in the book of Matthew.

    Although they "appear" to be used interchangably, distinctions can be made.

    There is also a "Kingdom of men" mentioned in the book of Daniel.

    With that stated, allow me to present a summary of a bible study by your "rapture nemesis", Pastor Carl Denson, that make the distinctions and the relationships among these kingdoms:

    These are the three kingdoms mentioned in the Holy Bible:

    (1) The kingdom of God, which has always been. God is a spirit (John 4), and has a moral, righteous, spiritual kingdom.

    (2) The kingdom of men, which is PART of God’s sovereign rulership and authority, as Creator. It is ruled by whomsoever he chooses DOWN THROUGH TIME. It STARTED with ADAM. It’s dominion is on earth.

    (3) The kingdom of heaven. This is part of God’s sovereign rulership and authority, which he has given HIS SON, through DAVID, UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN. It HAS NOT started, as of yet, but will AT HIS RETURN, when he PHYSICALLY OVERTHROWS the kingdoms of this earth, and takes his kingdom BY FORCE (Revelation 19, 11, 14, 6, Isaiah 63). His rule will go forth from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2), and of the increase of his GOVERNMENT and PEACE, there shall be no end, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID. That is a literal, visible, throne, that Solomon set on ruling over ISRAEL AND JUDAH (2 Samuel 3, 1 Kings 2). That is the "CHUNK of DIRT" given to Abraham.

    The kingdom of men and the kingdom of heaven are PART of the kingdom of God, in that, he GIVES the authority and rulership. He RULES the earth.

    The three kingdoms are all different. THEY ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. They all start at DIFFERENT times. They all reference DIFFERENT kings.

    The detail of this summary can be found at the following link:

    http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm98.showMessage?topicID=1.topic
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    R.J.

    I don't care what Carl saying. Let's sticky with God's Word. Tomorrow night, I will discuss on 'Kingdom of God' & 'Kingdom of Heaven' with lot of verses, both are same meaning.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Askjo

    Askjo
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    DeafPosttrib, I did not see how/what you refute Carl's answer.
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    **edit here**I am a dispensationalist and do not agree with his little theory.

    I have tried to encourage you to get a clue about what we believe instead of your **edit here** rants about made up junk.

    Consider Pentecost, who views the two as the same. He is a pretty popular dispy. Now, come back after you have studied more, alot more.

    [ September 27, 2004, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    I'm back. I did read Carl's post.

    My understanding of 'kingdom of men' speaks of nations' own kingdom in their times. Their kingdoms are temporary, their kingdoms shall be pass away. But God's kingdom shall never be pass away, it always remain forever and ever - "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and comsume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountian without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certian, and the interpreation thereof sure." - Daniel 2:44-45 also read Daniel 7:14, and 27.

    Bible tells, God's kingdom shall never be destroyed, God's Kingdom stands forever and ever.

    Kingdom = King/ dom King dominons. It means, a king reigns over things.

    Bible teaches us there are three kingdoms:

    Kingdom of Satan -Matt. 12:25
    Kingdom of men -Dan. 4:17,25, & 32
    Kingdom of God- tons of verses in the Bible.

    Notice, there are several passages of the kingdom relate to God & Christ:

    "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God." - Ephesians 5:5

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" - Colossians 1:13

    "For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:11

    There are passages about the kingdom relates to Christ/God, yet all of these are techincally mean all are same meaning.

    Some dispensationalists believe 'kingdom of God' & 'kingdom of heaven' are different means. Some saying 'kingdom of heaven' of Matthew apply to Israel/Jews. Some saying 'kingdom of God' apply to Church both Jews and Gentiles.

    Actually, there are so many verses in the Gospels are overwhelming tell us, both are same meaning.

    I am going to show you many verses in the Gospels, there are so many verses show the overwhelm evidences both are same meaning.

    SIMILAR PASSAGES:

    Matthew 18:1-4 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, 'Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

    Similar with:

    Mark 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

    Circumstances tell little bit different yet the messages was still the same.

    Matthew 13:24-26,30 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field But while men slept, his enemy came, and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. Let both grow together until the hearvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

    similar as:

    Mark 4:25-29 "For he that hath, to him shall be given; and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that whuch he hath. And he said, 'So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come."

    Matt. 13:24-26,30 and Mark 4:25-29 both speak of the harvest of the kingdom. There is no difference between 'kingdom of heaven' & 'kingdom of God', but are same meaning, because both passages speak of the harvest of the kingdom.

    PARALLEL PASSAGES:

    Matt. 4:12,17 "Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, 'Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    parallel with other verses:

    Mark 1:14-15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, believe the GOSPEL."

    There is no difference between Matt. 4:12,17; & Mark 1:14-15 as what Christ preached on the gospel. Christ preached on the SAME gospel about the kingdom.

    There are more of parallel passages:

    Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffeth violence, and the violent take it by force."

    it parallels with:

    Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were unitl John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

    Obivous, both are same meaning.

    And there's more...

    Matthew 10:5-14 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, 'Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses; Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves; for the workman is worthy of his meat. And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it." And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

    Same as Christ commanded them:

    Luke 9:1-6 "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them. 'Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye neter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.' And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing every where."

    Both passages tell us, Christ commanded them the same thing. He commanded them to preaching the gospel of kingdom to people.

    And more...

    Matthew 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, 'Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

    Same as Christ said in

    Mark 4:11 "And he said unto them, 'Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:"

    Christ told them, they ought to know the mystery of the kingdom, there is no difference between 'kingdom of heaven' & 'kingdom of God', both are synonymous.

    There's more...

    Matthew 5:3-6 "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be conforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

    Christ said the same thing:

    Luke 6:20-21 "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, 'Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled, Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh."

    Obivously, both of 'kingdom of heaven' & 'kingdom of God' are same meaning as what Christ talked about our blessings.

    There's more...

    Matthew 19:14 "But Jesus said, 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

    Same as Christ said:

    Mark 10:14 "But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, 'Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God."

    Both passages are very clearly tell us, both 'kingdom of heaven ' & 'kingdom of God' are synonymous. Christ said, allow people come to the kingdom, he means that everyone should know the gospel of the kingdom, Christ desires everyone of the world ought to hear the gospel of the eternal life.

    I could give you lot of verses on the kingdom, if I want to. There are so overwhelm evidences in the Gospels telling us, both of 'kingdom of heaven' & 'kingdom of God' are same meaning.

    A person said, "The kingdom is nothing more than a King (Christ) and His subjects (the Jew/Gentile believing redeemed Church of all ages)."

    He's right, it is simple. Kingdom is for everyone either Jew or Gentile whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ are redeemed Church of all ages.

    'Kingdom of heaven' & 'kingdom of God' both are speak of God's things and eternality kingdom.

    John 3:3 & 7 simple tell us, we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, or if a person refuse to be born again, then cannot enter the kingdom of God, that mean a person who refuse to be born again, will be spend suffering into the everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Very simple.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. PowerndBlood

    PowerndBlood
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    The Kingdom of God = All Spiritual

    Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


    Kingdom of Heaven = visable on earth men, women and children

    Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
     
  8. LandonL

    LandonL
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    Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are interchangeable. The latter appears only in Matthew, while the former appears in the other gospels. Matthew is understood by many to have a distinctly Jewish outlook compared to Mark, Luke and John, and in the Jewish culture, you just did not say "God".

    Also, if you examine parallel passages, you will find that nearly every occurrence of "kingdom of God" in Mark, Luke and John is changed to "kingdom of heaven" by Matthew when he uses it.

    So, in other words, I'm largely supporting DeafPostTrib's post.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Where does God lives right now?

    Do we see heaven as visible now?

    Matt. 6:10 speaks of God's sovereignty. Christ says, he have power both in heaven and earth - Matt. 28:18.

    Kingdom is already present upon us as the gospel is spreading over the world. Kingdom is a spiritual. Christ said, "the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:21. The kingdom is not observe with our sighting. Kingdom is spiritual.

    Of course, when Christ shall come again, we all shall see the kingdom visibly upon earth for eternality - Matt. 6:10. Kingdom of God/heaven shall be visibly on earth at Christ's coming.

    You quoted Matt. 11:12 - 'Kingdom of heaven', but, also, it refers to Luke 16:16, the same passage, as it says, 'kingdom of God'. Both are same meaning.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. PowerndBlood

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    DeafPosttrib, i disagree with you but that is fine.There are differences between the two, imho.

    Since when could someone take the Kingdom of God by force?

    Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of *(God)* suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

    Nobody takes the Kingdom of God by force or anything else.

    I hope you see what i'm getting at.

    Still it's nice to discuss things, i will try to get back later today and try to prove my case.

    See you later.
     
  11. PowerndBlood

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    Guy's i'm sorry i didn't post anything yet on this and i know most won't believe what i say on this subject but i will try to get back later with more.

    I believe that God took the Kingdom of Heaven out(visible)when He pulled the crown away from the jews, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.That is why Jesus came as King of the Jews, but they turned down the King and the Kingdom.

    I really enjoy hearing others opinions and seeing how God is working in and through them.

    I also admit that one of the best things is sometimes when you or i try to teach others, that's when we learn the most.

    Man, i wish i could type, lol.

    Peace.
     

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