Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, Transcripts

It is just that the lies being spun about the "4 paragraphs that ADMIT to the debate between the ID theory and the bogus theory of eovlutionism" seem to be "insufficient" to justify the gross censorship of students, science, parents, school authorities etc in this case.

I suppose I know "why" evolutionism needs to be so protectionist and defensive that it would boldly censor objective thinking - I just didn't think normal humans would go for it - much less Christians of any stripe.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Admitting to the existence of the theory and existence of the book was viewed as "inane" by the activist judge in this case.

Here is the summary condemnation of ID by the judge and the charge that “it is unconstitutional” to even admit that ID exists even to “refer to its existence” if it is done in the form of the 3rd paragraph of the 4 paragraph statement from the District School board – The summary is in essence - that it is "unconstitutional" for Christians to express their view of nature AS IF that view was “real science” instead of just stupid blind dark-ages superstition that dumb Christians still cling to even to this very day!

--Specific actions hidden behind the pretext of protecting first amendment rights of ALL (excluding objective thinking students, parents, scientists, etc - i.e. the majority of U.S citizens) --

When we recall that these draconian statements are being issued in response to that one paragraph that admits to the existence of "People and Pandas" and admits to the mere existence of another theory called ID - it is easy to see that –

• The constitution is being "bent" to oppose discoveries in science that support the Creator's own statements on Nature, life, species of animals or the Bible history of mankind's very existence.

• The constitution is being "bent" to oppose any discussion of scientific data that calls into question that humanist religion we know today as evolutionism.

Is Christianity really such a disgusting institution that Science itself must be 'censored' to abolish discussion of all data that might question evolutionism and favor Christianity??

Have we come so far from our own "Declaration of Independence" http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/decl.html that it is now "unconstitutional" to speak of what we see in nature - as having its origin in the Creator - who DID something that can be seen as having been done by HIM - that shows that He has an ounce of intelligence?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

So at one time it was "SELF EVIDENT" for all - no matter what faith and was essential to the wellbeing of our nation -- but now it is "no longer allowed” to be “self-evident" unless you are in church or possibly studying mythology???

What is this sub-class this non-citizen that we call "Christian"? Such a low, despised creature that scientific data that may be seen as confirming the Creator's words must be censored from the science class room!!

How did we fall below the level of basic freedoms and protection provided by our nation's constitution?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3548.html#000000
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So although this statement STILL requires that ALL students swallow the propaganda of Darwinian evolutionism - it allows a tiny bit of light into the room for just a microsecond.

It merely "informs" the student that IF they have some intellectual curiosity beyond the brainwashing being offered in the course - they are free to go to the library and look up an alternative view - namely - ID.

And of course - freedom of thought that might possibly expose the flaws in evolutionism or might allow the READING of scientific data IN FAVOR of Christianity - must be "censored" for everybody's good!!

(Hard to believe that UTEOTW and Paul are going down that road - but "oh well")

 

In the opening arguments the expert for the oppressors of free thought (read - evolutionism's storm troopers) admitted that the ID vs Evol debate WAS taking place in science forums - they just "need" to censor it from students to conform to their mind control - brainwashing policy.

So even though the school was "towing the line" in promoting the same mindless evolutionist drivel in the actual classroom" yet that ONE PARAGRAPH statement at the intro to the class must be fought over in courts to get it censored. It does after all ADMIT to the EXISTENCE of the theory of ID!!

How pathetic the evolutionist storm troopers have become - friends. Surely they have some dignity left!! Where is the common sense that would remain as a basic part of humanity for the evols??

I just can't believe this level of censorship and brainwashing is being sponsored by the evol camp!! Arent there ANY liberals left over there??!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Moreover, ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard.
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That is simply "Mind-numbing drivel" spewed by the evolutionist hardliners totally devoid of objective thought.

I used objective tactics when I used EVOLUTIONISM's priesthood for PROOF of the perfidity of evolutionism but the evolutionist hardliners could not bring themselves to use that level of objectivity - so what do they do "recast objective methods" as though objectivity is "a bad thing"!!

WE see the same thing "again" in the quote above. The ID group would love to TEACH ID in public schools JUST AS THEY DO IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS (obviously).

But the quote above "pretends" not to notice that - and PRETENDS that the mind-washing environment of the Public school system that CENSORS freedom of thought and the ability to openly consider alternate theories is an example of "ID BEING mean to the Public shools" or dishonest about its intent!!

We see it in bold print! This has GOT to be embarrassing for at least ONE evolutionist capable of independant objective thought!!

Come on -- is there not ONE?!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a perfect "Example" of the mind-numbing vaccuous noncompusmentus approach that is possible when confronted with rank censorship if one is truly committed to a slavish devotion to evolutionism over the Bible.

In this case the totally bogus argument is put forward that for everything we find in nature it is up to Bible believing Christians to show "what was God thinking" AND to show "That God would let things 'decay like this in exactly this way'"

That pathetic "game" is played all the while the evolutionist is claiming "if we have to talk about God then whatever you say is not science".

I can't believe the practioners of evolutionism have sunk to such a level when it comes to total and complete lack of objective, rational arguments and blind support of rank censorship!!

And yet - this is the "substance" of their response in their own words!!

They engage pseudoscience-tactics to prop up their religious devotion to evolutionism, and "THEN" they turn a blind eye to their own efforts to censor science, students, the public -- with this kind of drivel??

oh well.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"again" it appears that our brethren are so steeped in protecting evolutionism that they simply fail to "get it".

#1. The trial represent rank censorship of the most egregious kind. Humans of all stripes should be "able to see that" even if they are bound and gagged by their own devotion to evolutionism.

#2. Bible-accepting creationist believers DO NOT argue that ID is THEIR view of origins!! "Get it"??

The ID argument is THE LOWEST common denominator -- arguing only the MOST BASIC and OBVIOUS points as observed in nature - for the "painter that does the painting having an IQ over 12".

This is incredibly offensive and threatening to atheist evolutionist "believers" in evolutionism. They MUST deny that the Painting was DONE BY the painter or that there even IS a painter. And of course no one can blame THEM for being so afraid of these basic truths as to turn a blind eye to all scienctific data in support of "the obvious".

What IS amazing (to BOTH atheist/agnostic evolutionists AND to Bible-believing Christians) is that so-called "Christian evolutionists" would ALSO find it repulsive to SEE that the PAINTER has an IQ over 12 as revealed IN the painting!!

(This SAME point has to be continually reviewed until FINALLY at least ONE intellectually open, objective, honest evolutionist can "bring themselves" to respond).

In Christ,

Bob

 

What is even MORE amazing - as has been pointed out in THIS thread is that those SAME Christian evolutionists "must pretend to be blind" to the rank censorship that characterized the decision of this Pennsylvania case.

But one "can" appreciate their "need" for "dead silence" so far.

In Christ,

Bob

 

More mind-numbing quotes from those who would pander to evolutionism and turn a blind eye to the gross censorship being practiced by protectionists evolutionists.

Here we see the "bait and switch" tactic of "pretending" that the trial is about TEACHING "the Pandas" book in school instead of the "inconvenient fact" that the schools WERE ONLY teaching evolutionism and were CONTINUING under the schackles and iron rule of evolutionism's thought police in that regard.

INSTEAD OF TEACHING creationism - what was ACTUALLY done was to ALLOW a 4 paragraph STATEMENT OF FACT that the Pandas book EXISTS and that the ID theory EXISTS and is NOT in agreement with evolutionism.

The blinders-on methods of evolutionists here testify to that SAMe spirit of censorship exhibited in the trial - I suppose.

I had hoped for a somewhat higher standard in this evolutionist group when it came to rank censorship.

Clearly - I was not giving credit where credit is due.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Behe is simply pointing out the perfidity of the inquisition.

He shows that in their own statements they "allow" for a "kind of god" that exists while still holding to their own naturalistic atheistic view of science. He then argues that his own "claims in ID" (minimalist claims) do not insist on "identifying something as God" much less Christianity or a deity.

The "bad guys" in this case are happy to say some kind of "god exists" as long as we all agree to turn a blind eye to any disconfirming evidence in the Darwinian model for evolutionism and claim that "naturalism is all the god we need" when it comes to "LIFE".

Behe says "you are talking too much about a god and you are also claiming too much for Darwinian evolution". He then proposes "there is design" not just "water boiling" - but then does not want to talk about "a god who DID the design".

Behe's position is what you would "reasonably expect" from a minimalist Christian evolutionist. It is certainly NOT creationism!

As modest has his claims are - they are still above atheist evolutionism - and so by definition - they are far beyond what passes for Christian evolutionism on this board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Let's face it. The judiciary has become as racist and fascist as the ACLU which supports neo-Darwinist race theories of "primitive" African human origins from monkey and ape ancestors.

 

In this case the Judge WAS IN THE ACLU's pocket. He ruled right down the line according to ALL that the ACLU had to say about ID NOT just in the case of "motives" of the school board but ALSO on the idea that NO SCIENCE must be allowed to challenge the PSEUDOSCIENCE of darwinian evolutionism.

This was all ACLU front to back.

It was the ACLU that NEEDED to CENSOR the 4 paragraphs (TWO of which simply ADMIT to the EXISTENCE of the ID theory!!)

It was the ACLU that argued that STUDENTS should not know what the COURT was HEARING about the debate!!

And interestingly - it is so-called "Christian" evolutionist here - on this board - promoting rank dogmatic censorhip IN THIS CASE and aligning themselves publically AGAINST the "Christian evolutionist" positions of Behe.

So if these guys here can not bring themselves to even be "Christian evolutionists" what kind of evolutionist ARE THEY?? Answer - they side with the atheist darwinian model of evolutionism NOT with the Christian evolutionist views of Behe that HOLD to the truths of Romans 1!!

TRUTHS that GOD claims EVEN the PAGANs can see!

TRUTHS that our own declaration of independance claims are "SELF EVIDENT"!!

Are they simply "masking themselves" as "Christian evolutionists" while really promoting nothing but dogmatic censorship and rank atheist evolutionist views??

This trial has created a venue for unmasking the real depth of the inroads of atheism into the thinking of our brethren here on the board.

I find this whole thing to be pretty fascinating!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Alas for BobRyan and the argument he espouses, the court decided that those who claim ID is not science managed to prove it.

Instead, they managed to prove it is a sneaky attempt to get actual promotion of religion into the public schools.

BobRyan, of course, not being a baptist but being 7th day adventist, is not part of the baptist tradition of seperation of church and state.

The religous zeal he so evidently brings to this cause is evidence his cause is religion and not science.

 

Yes, indeed. The courts have also decided that abortion is not murder. We now call abortion: freedom of choice.

We have redefined what homosexuality might be as well. Once regarded as an abomination, we now call it: alternative lifestyle.

Now what?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Do you want to bring back the days of stoning people for committing adultary?

If you want to smuggle ID into the classroom, you're going to have to rename it to something a little less question-begging.

Stick with "irreducible complexity", and use ID as a philosophical/religous tool to explain "irreducible complexity".

But then to PROVE something is "irreducibly complex" will still be impossible.

 

There is a death penalty for breaking any commandment--in the OT. We are all under a death penalty--"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death". Jesus is the only one who has not stayed in the grave.

While SIN may not be "provable" experimentally to our reprobate scientific minds, the empirical data is everywhere.

Selah,
Bro. James

[ January 09, 2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

Brother James, I find nothing to disagree with in your last post. Jesus is our only hope for getting out of this mess.

 

#1. They proved nothing of the kind!

#2. The fact that atheists and agnostics "Need" to ignore the ID prints "clearly seen IN NATURE" should not suprise Christians - not even Evolutionist-believing Christians. So why do you "pretend" not to "Get it"??

#3. The fact that one court went a bit goofy on this due to the proclivity of the judge in question to do that very thing - does not settle the question for America.

#4. The bigger issue is the totally bogus censorship proposal coming from the courts that would censor the science class room by saying that any data found in nature that challenges Darwinian ATHEIST views on evolutionism must be censored. And if that were not braindead "enough" the court further argues that to FAIL to censor in favor of atheist darwinian naturalism in that draconian fashion is to "Violate the constitution.

This censorship EVEN extends to the point of lying about the current debate IN science contexts between the bungled stories in Darwinian naturalism vs the glaringly obvious insights of the ID model. Censoring the class that the students may not "KNOW" about the facts of this debate as expressed IN the trial!!

#5. Worst of all - though we can see how the atheist would have to stand up in favor of such a rank dogmatic appeal to censorship in favor of atheist views of nature -- why would Christian evolutionists do it??

It is as if the Christian evolutionists (some at least) were totally brainwashed into parroting anyting the atheists told them to say!


(BTW - I still predict the day will come when noble descent atheist Americans will eventually stand up against this rank censorship and the draconian shackles placed on science in this ruling and will declare it to be the sham that it is. When that happens those Christian evolutionists that have been cowed by the atheists will also have to admit to their part in promoting that mistake)

In Christ,

Bob