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KJV1611 vs. current revisions

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 21, 2004.

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  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Does anybody have a list of actual "words" being left out or added to the KJV1611 as compared to current versions, such as the Oxford?

    I notice it is interesting. Some KJVo's in the higher numbers (Dr. Bob's rankings) believe that every jot and tittle means even the punctuation.

    We know that God was referring to the LAW.

    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    (KJV Oxford)

    Today I was reading along with the pastor in my KJV1611 replica and KJV Oxford. It is interesting that the punctuation added (or even left out) is TREMENDOUS.

    Does this NOT change the perceived meaning of the translations?

    To me, this seems to require a later day revelation than 1611 if you wish to maintain KJVo 5 or 6 level.
     
    #1 Phillip, Nov 21, 2004
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Philippians IIII.19 (KJV1611):

    But my God shall supply all your
    need, according to his riches in glory, by
    Christ Iesus.

    Philippians 4:19 (KJV1769):

    But my God shall supply all your
    need according to his riches in glory by
    Christ Jesus.

    Would you believe the first verse i looked at?
     
    #2 Ed Edwards, Nov 21, 2004
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, I would. I was amazed at how the commas used in the 1611 were DROPPED, not so much as ADDED.

    I thought you might jump in here since I know you also have a 1611.

    In reality, I feel like Dr. Bob when he said it was a good experience to read through the original. It is actually quite easy to read as long as you have a decent understanding of the older version of English.

    I owe the fact that I can "somewhat" understand the KJV on growing up with it while in church. Memorizing many, many scriptures as a child in Bible Schools and Training Union (remember training union? I know you do. . . just feeling nostaligia tonight.)

    I honestly feel a person who reads at the level of typical high-school kids today will have a lot of difficulty in really understanding the KJV. Like a lot of people I have seen, many think they know what it says, but it may mean something else in reality.

    I do believe the Holy Spirit helps a Christian understand the Bible, but this does not allow me to say that my differing interpretation is something I should force on others.

    Sorry, rambling tonight.

    Thanks Ed
     
    #3 Phillip, Nov 21, 2004
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Matthew 5:18 AV1611 For verily I say vnto you, Till Heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    It does not even USE the terms "jot" or "tittle"!
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Nov 21, 2004
  5. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    [​IMG]
     
    #5 Phillip, Nov 22, 2004
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    KJV defender D. A. Waite has a booklet entitled
    THE AUTHORIZED VERSION 1611 COMPARED TO TODAY'S KJV. It lists all the differences he found between the 1611 KJV and the Oxford edition of the KJV as found in the Scofield Reference Bible.
    This list was 421 changes of which he termed "136 substantial changes" and "285 minor changes of form." He only listed "changes affecting the sound."

    I have been checking the accuracy of Waite's
    count by using the same two editions. I have found that Waite overlooked two-thirds of the actual differences. I am presently typing up my list and have already listed over 1240 thru 1 Corinthians and have around 50 or so more to list.
    My list includes all the changes of form, but it could also be used to find most the words either added or omitted by later editors. My list is probably too long to post here.
     
    #6 Logos1560, Nov 22, 2004
  7. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Logos1560; What I am REALLY after is words missing or words added. Not spelling or even punctuation.

    My point is only ONE can be the PERFECT Word-Of-God.

    To be a true KJVo, they must move their date up to the last revision, or return to reading the 1611 version.

    This is not about KJV preferred.
     
    #7 Phillip, Nov 22, 2004
  8. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    KJV is 12th-grade reading level or something, and Sparkies in AWANA clubs are memorizing it. Do they understand it all? Probably not. I'm all for sparkie clubs and Bible Quiz and memorizing Scripture, but whatever version is used, the kids should be taught what the verses mean. The KJV awana books just might end up having more definitions beside the verses than other versions, like "propitiation" and so on. If you teach a kid what propitiation means, so what, is he going to go tell his 2nd grade friends that Jesus is a "propitiation"? I hope not, I mean, not use that word.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #8 Bluefalcon, Nov 22, 2004
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Check and compare the following verses in
    the 1611 and present Oxford edition for some
    examples:

    examples where later editors added two words:
    Exod. 15:25, 21:32, 35:11, Lev. 19:34, Lev. 26:23, Deut. 26:1, 1 Sam. 18:27, Ezek. 34:31,
    46:23, John 7:16, 2 Cor. 9:6, 1 John 5:12, Rev. 1:4, 5:13

    examples where later editors added three words:
    Lev. 26:40, Num. 7:31, 7:55, Josh. 13:29, 2 Kings 11:10, Ezek. 3:11, 2 Cor. 11:32, 2 Tim. 4:13

    example where later editors added six words
    Eccl. 8:17

    There are also several verses where one word was either added or omitted by later editors.

    There are also several verses where there is a difference in singular verses plural.
     
    #9 Logos1560, Nov 22, 2004
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Thanks for the list logos.

    My problem has been that I do not have a 1611 in searchable form. The only 1611 Is in the old font (can't read it very well at all), on CD as pictures of the OLD FONTS, and my new replica 1611 in Times New Roman font, which I can read.

    I have to compare from book to book and after about an hour of that yesterday, even with reading glasses, the ole' eyes gave me a good headache.

    Besides, it would still be difficult to compare because of the punctuation and spelling differences would not allow for an easy file comparison.

    But, it would be handy if online Bible or somebody would come up with a 1611 version that you could at least compare side-by-side with another version. I have yet to see one.

    I believe that E-Sword has the Geneva Bible, but I don't think they have the 1611.

    Surely someone has it somewhere in a file in some kind of text format (as opposed to graphics) for download, but I have yet to find it.
     
    #10 Phillip, Nov 22, 2004
  11. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    A couple examples where later editors added a word to the 1611:

    Gen. 19:21 this thing [1611] this thing also [Oxford]
    Gen. 22:7 and wood [1611] and the wood [Oxford]

    Some examples where later editors omitted
    a word that was in the 1611:

    Gen. 31:1 of our father's hath [1611]
    our father's hath [Oxford]

    Exod. 37:19 made he after [1611] made after [Oxford]
    Josh. 12:2 river of Arnon [1611] river Arnon [Oxford]
    1 Sam. 10:10 of the prophets [1611] of prophets [Oxford]
    Ezra 3:5 that willingly offered, offered [1611]
    that willingly offered [Oxford]
    Ezra 4:24 house of the God [1611] house of God [Oxford]
     
    #11 Logos1560, Nov 24, 2004
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    HUGE doctrinal change came in the number of Gifts of the Spirit as listed in I Cor. 12:28

    A.V. KJV (1611)
    And God hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondarily Prophets, thirdly Teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helpes in gouernmets, diuersities of tongues.

    Current KJV (1850)
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    Which is correct?
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, Nov 25, 2004
  13. Biblethumper

    Biblethumper New Member

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    hmmm, Dr. Bob, by Bible says 'the text conformable to that of the edition of the 1611 commonly known as the Authourized or King James Version' in the front of it, but it does say what you quoted as the 1850.

    I don't have the original 1611 at hand right now, but can you post some other examples like this one, for me to compare to mine? Thanks.
     
    #13 Biblethumper, Nov 26, 2004
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Thump. That is an exact 1611 rendition and the later is consistent with ALL modern revisions of the KJV.

    Need a couple more to show REAL changes in the AV to the modern KJV? THESE ARE SHOCKING TO KJVonly, so please, read at your own risk. Onlies have been taught that these texts are the same, except spelling. But ADDING words or SUBTRACTING words is some serious change!!

    ~~~~~~~
    AV1611 (wrong verse number!)
    I Cor. 15:5 "And that hee was seene of aboue fiue hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remaine vnto this present, but some are fallen asleepe.

    KJV1769 Oxford revision makes time progression not in the Greek
    I Cor 15:6 "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    ~~~~~~
    AV1611
    I Tim. 1:4 "Neither giue heed to fables, and endlesse genealogies, which minister questions, rather than edifying which is in faith: so doe."

    KJV1769 Oxford revision ADDS an important word - "godly"!
    4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    ~~~~~~~
    AV1611
    I John 5:12 "Hee that hath the Sonne, hath life; and hee that hath not the Sonne, hath not life."

    KJV1769 Oxford revision adds "of God"
    I John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

    THIS is why we speak of "conflation" adding words as a major problem in the Greek. Good words. "godly", "of God", helping to clarify.

    But if these changes are from one edition of the AV in ENGLISH to the next (when there was a printing press), imagine what it was like in a monk's cell with the various Greek texts.
     
    #14 Dr. Bob, Nov 27, 2004
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Later editors added 6 words to the 1611 edition of the KJV at one verse, 3 words at eight verses,
    2 words at twelve verses, 1 word at over 90 verses. Later editors omitted 1 word at over
    twenty verses (whether intentionally or by accident), and they intentionally omitted 21 words at one verse (Exod. 14:10) [because they had been added by mistake].

    Later editors changed the number of over 40 words in the 1611 [from singular to plural or from plural to singular]. They made a number of other changes in the 1611.
     
    #15 Logos1560, Dec 2, 2004
  16. manchester

    manchester New Member

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    I agree that you've found a very serious doctrinal change there. The new so-called "KJV" has added a new gift of the Holy Spirit, and we know that blasphemy to the Spirit is unforgivable. (Not to mention adding and subtracting from His Word.)

    I wonder about the motivation of this doctrinal change - is it to tell the laity that God has given them the gift of "helping" (sweeping the church floors) when, in fact, the true gift is to help govern the church?
     
    #16 manchester, Dec 11, 2004
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Let's start a topic on Theology - seriously, it is a valid question. Manchester, I'll answer you when you start it.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #17 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2004
  18. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    My list of the same-type changes or differences between the 1611 edition and the Oxford KJV edition like those listed by D. A. Waite is now
    up to over 1800. The actual evidence shows that Waite did not find and count over two-thirds of the changes and around one-half of those he termed "substantial changes."

    That does not include the actual variations among the several varying present-day KJV editions. Some present-day KJV editions include this Oxford edition, the Cambridge Standard Text edition, the American Bible Society edition, the 1873 Cambridge edition presently reprinted in the ZONDERVAN KJV STUDY BIBLE, the KJV edition in the OPEN BIBLE, the edition entitled THE KING JAMES RED LETTER BIBLE (Special Study Edition) published
    by a KJV-only advocate.

    Others that could possibly be considered are the 1999 American KJV, the 2000 Revised King James N. T. edited by Brad Baugaard, the "Comfort-able" KJV in THE EVIDENCE BIBLE, the AV7, and the Easy Reading KJV.

    Which of the present-day KJV editions has been identified as the proven 100% perfect one?
     
    #18 Logos1560, Dec 19, 2004
  19. manchester

    manchester New Member

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    Any spirits who tell you that the Bible must only be read in a foreign language, or in a version of English that is hundreds of years old, is clearly and undeniably a spirit from Satan trying to attack the Word of God, to keep the Word of God from being understood by the people. Those who knowingly embrace demons and demonic messages should repent.
     
    #19 manchester, Dec 19, 2004
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