KJV'ers Should Love the Living Bible

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Feb 26, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    " Some" KJV'ers , not all or even most . Certainly no calvinistic KJV'er should appreciate the Living Bible . I must say here that there is a big gulf between the LB and the NLT2 . The NLT2 is certainly more Calvinistic . KJV'ers who rail against Calvinism would have more support from the LB than the KJV which is Calvinistic .

    Take a gander at a few snippets . I'll contrast the LB snips with the same snips in the ISV . The LB will be at the top .

    Acts 4:28 They won't stop at anything that you in your wise power will let them do .

    to do all that your hand and will had predetermined to take place .

    Acts 13:48 ... and as many as wanted eternal life believed .

    ... all who had been destined to eternal life believed .

    Romans 8:28 ( ending ) , 29 ... fitting into God's plans . For from the very beginning God decided that those who came to him -- and all along he knew who would --

    ... who are called according to his purpose . For those whom he foreknew he also predestined ...
     
  2. Rippon

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    Somer More Examples

    LB at the top , and the NLT2 below .

    John 5:21 He will even raise from the dead anyone he wants to , just as the Father does .
    For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead , so the Son gives life to anyone he wants .

    John 6:65 ... That is what I meant when I said that no one can come to me unless the Father attracts him to me .
    ... That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me .
     
  3. Faith alone

    Faith alone
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    Rippon,

    Interesting. But don't you think that the NIV is far more reformed that the NLT2? True, the ISV is also very reformed.

    FWIW, that's why I do not prefer either the NIV or the ISV.

    FA
     
  4. Rippon

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    But FA , you seem to like the TNIV . How could you not like the NIV ? What's wrong with the ISV ? Too Reformed ? But what about how faithful these versions are as translations ? It's hard to remove Calvinistic concepts ( teachings , doctrines ) from Holy Writ -- because it is present throughout the Bible .

    Among the members of the translation teams for the NLT2 , ESV and TNIV were ( those who have died ) and are Reformed . I do not see the NIV as being more Reformed or Calvinistic than the NLTse .
     
    #4 Rippon, Mar 12, 2007
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  5. Faith alone

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    Rippon,

    I like the quality of the work done on the NIV/TNIV, in general. But that there is a distinct reformed bias is obvious. Personally, when studying a text I use the Greek text. The NIV perhaps is the best balanced (FE-DE) translation out.

    Now the ISV has quite a reformed bent as well. Also, it follows a more recent trend among some translations of translating some texts, when it better lines up with their theology, as the gnomic (habitual) present tense... For example,

    1 John 3:6-9
    NASB: No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    NIV:No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

    NKJV: No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

    NRSV: No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

    ESV: No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

    TNIV:No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 Those who are born of God will not continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

    HCSB: Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.

    NLT: So if we continue to live in him, we won't sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is. 7 Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it is because they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows they belong to the Devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy these works of the Devil. 9 Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God.

    ISV: No one who remains in him goes on sinning. The one who goes on sinning hasn't seen him or known him. 7 Little children, don't let anyone deceive you. The person who practices righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The person who practices sin belongs to the evil one, because the devil has been sinning since the beginning. The reason that the Son of God was revealed was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born from God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born from God.

    WEB:Whoever remains in him doesn't sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him. 7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God.

    The Message: No one who lives deeply in Christ makes a practice of sin. None of those who do practice sin have taken a good look at Christ. They've got him all backwards. 7 So, my dear children, don't let anyone divert you from the truth. It's the person who acts right who is right, just as we see it lived out in our righteous Messiah. 8 Those who make a practice of sin are straight from the Devil, the pioneer in the practice of sin. The Son of God entered the scene to abolish the Devil's ways. 9 People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.

    End of part I - comments to follow.

    FA
     
    #5 Faith alone, Mar 12, 2007
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  6. Faith alone

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    Continued...

    Rippon,

    Continued...


    Notice the difference in how the NIV, TNIV, NLT, ISV and the ESV read here as compared to other translations? (Thx for pointing out about the ESV. It is a very mild revision of the RSV - very little changed there. However, in certain passages they do follow the Gnomic present tense form of translation. It clearly has a reformed bias to it. And notice this is not a recent "modern translation" tendency, but a "reformed" tendency, as many modern translations, such as the NRSV - which is much more extensive of a revision of the RSV than is the ESV - do not follow that practice. (I think The Message is simply being rather free here. Could be wrong.) This sort of translation reinforces the "perseverance of the saints."

    You might be right regarding the reformed bias of the NLT as compared to the NIV/TNIV. But the RCA is behind the NIV.

    1 John 3 is one of the first places to go when looking for a reformed bias. It shows up every time there.

    The gnomic present tense is a very rare form of the present tense. It MUST be supported by clear context. Such context is not there in 1 John 3. IMO theology is being read into the text there by using the habitual present tense. Also, the translation of POIEW as "practice" (which it can mean, though that is not the 1st meaning listed in lexicons) rather than "do, perform, commit" (primary meaning) again seems to be dictated by theology.

    In that respect (POIEW) seems to indicate a more reformed bias by the ISV and ESV here than the NIV/TNIV. The NLT and NIV seem to be at the same level here.

    FA
     
    #6 Faith alone, Mar 12, 2007
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  7. Rippon

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    Hi FA . What is the RCA ? ( Aside from the old record company .) . I'm sorry , but I don't see a real substantial difference between the various versions and their Reformed readings . ( I'm not putting The Message into the mix though .) I say "Reformed readings" because I believe that is the way the Bible actually reads -- that's the perspective of the Scriptures . I do not think anyone ( or team) is deliberately putting a Calvinistic spin on any version . The ESV is usually the one which is targeted with that charge though . One can become a Calvinist while reading/studying/meditating on any number of English versions ( not counting the multitude of foreign translations ) .
     
  8. Faith alone

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    RCA = "Reformed Churches of America." You can read it in the preface.

    I don't agree that the "perspective of the Scriptures" is "Reformed." Why do most translations not translate as such?

    Anyway, I don't think I want to go down that path - no one can prove such a thing pro or con, of course. It's a matter of opinion. And I don't expect you to agree with even this last statement. (That's it's a matter of opinion. At least, that's the response I'm anticipating. Just saying so ahead of time.)

    Rippon, I have a lot of respect for Reformed theology. No, I am not a 5, 4 or even a 3 pointer. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the theology or that I am not close on some points. I sometimes refer to myself as a "moderate Calvnist," but that's usually misunderstood.


    You do see a difference between those translations I listed which read much differently in 1 John 3 from those which did, right? And I agree that a person can become reformed or hold to Reformed theology with an RSV, NASB, HCSB, etc.. The issue I have is sometimes having to explain that a particular text doesn't really say this or that. The way I handle 1 John is not based on not being a strong Calvinist. But it bugs me how that chapter is sometimes translated. My position on that book is what is referred to as the "new nature" view vs. the Reformed "tests of life" view. IMO the "tests of life" view cannot be supported without translating as has been.

    Anyway, I think we're getting far afield from the OP. I do not agree with it anyway, since the KJV is Arminian in bias, a bit. (Just talking historically.) Those translaters were Anglican in background... a far cry from Reformed.

    FA
     
  9. Rippon

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    Just tackling the last comment you made FA . You see the JKV as a bit Arminian ?! How is that ? Just because the revisers were Anglican doesn't mean they were not on the whole Calvinistic . John Rainolds was a Puritan and had some scuffles with Queen Elizabeth over his strong stance . King James had sent a delegation to the Synod of Dort to counter the Remonstrants -- Lancelot Andrewes one of the KJV revisors , was sent there .

    At that time in the early 17th century the Anglican Church was for the most part Calvinistic . Take a look at the 39 Articles written in the prior century . The 17th Article in particular was very Calvinistic -- " Of Predestination and Election ."

    Estimates run between 75% to 94% of the New Testament was basically William Tyndale's words that the KJV revisers retained . Tyndale was a strong Calvinist . The Geneva Bible , even aside from the marginal notes which got on the nerves of King James was not the only Calvinistic translation . The Dutch Bible ( later translated into English ) was Calvinistic . Luther's Bible was also . I do not see any Arminianism in any of these or others you may come up with -- even the Revised Bible of the 1880's .
     
  10. jshurley04

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    I just think that paraphrases are for children and not for growing Christ-followers. A mature follower of Christ does not need the word watered down but craves the strong meat of the Word.
     
  11. Faith alone

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    Rippon,

    Very interesting. The Anglican church was essentially England's version of Roman Catholicism, developed so that the king could divorce his wife and marry another. So I am very interested in any info. that indicates that at some time in its history it was somewhat Calvinistic.

    And I agree that the KJV is at least 90% Tyndale's work. Now, Tyndale translated the first Greek -> English NT, as soon as Erasmus had his Greek compiled NT available for printing. Erasmus' NT led to the reformation, IMO. But you got any evidence about the Church of England being Reformed, cause it most definitely isn't now, nor did it start out that way? That's the point I cannot accept without some evidence. Also anything on Tyndale being Calvinistic?

    Thx again.

    FA
     
  12. Rippon

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    FA , I have posted a lot on Tyndale . Search my threads . William Tyndale was as Calvinistic as John Wycliffe . Look at his prolog to the book of Romans ( basically the same ideas as Martin Luther's prolog to the same book .) Augustus Toplady wrote a book with an historical account of Calvinism within the Church of England . There are are many sources to verify this historical fact . Regardless of the less-than-reputable beginning to the Church of England -- it was indeed a mostly Reformed body of people -- exemplified by their ministers . Even today their is a remnant of Calvinism in their ranks -- J.I.Packer is perhaps the most famous . In his "Quest For Godliness" he quotes many Puritans and many Calvinistic Anglicans .
     

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