1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

KJVO claims disproven by the AV 1611/KJV itself

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by robycop3, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Gb, you are right. God hates those kinds of sins. That is also why Jesus died.
    I might point out to you however, that one who sins in the manners listed in Proverbs doesn't necessarily equal a lost man.
    I think you know better than that. [​IMG]
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    The inclusion of the words "some of you" makes this an uncalled for attack on fellow posters. There is not a single poster here who hates the KJV. It is this kind of comment that causes threads to be derailed.

    I apologise for dealing with this publically, but this comment has become the primary topic of this thread. All posters please refrain from this type of comment and deal with the issue at hand.

    If we continue in this vein the thread will be closed without further notice.

    Roger
    C4K
    Moderator

    [ February 18, 2005, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    Of course I agree with you. But if you examine his life it is certainly not in accord with Christ.

    Do you know of anything where he names himself as a believer? All I have read indicates to me that he loves to berate others and condemn them using vulgar language.
     
  4. David J

    David J New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    0
    NP at all Jim.

    Thank you for your kind words.
     
  5. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    GB;
    Yes, sir. He has a glorious testimony of being saved.
    And I personally know a few of his closest friends who have been with him in the prisons and on the streets preaching and reaping a harvest for the Saviour.
    I am told by first hand witnesses that he is very gracious to those he witnesses and preaches to. My own pastor was one of his students.

    Go figure huh?
    I know. I know. It makes no sense to me either, but there ya' go.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    That's great to know that he is gracious with non-believers.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.

    HankD
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    The inclusion of the words "some of you" makes this an uncalled for attack on fellow posters. There is not a single poster here who hates the KJV. It is this kind of comment that causes threads to be derailed.

    I apologise for dealing with this publically, but this comment has become the primary topic of this thread. All posters please refrain from this type of comment and deal with the issue at hand.

    If we continue in this vein the thread will be closed without further notice.

    Roger
    C4K
    Moderator
    </font>[/QUOTE]OK, I think every one has gotten into a twist over this comment. This was not intended to be a slight towards anyone on this board, and I did not say 'some of you' I said so many. Also I think you need to understand the word hate. Do you hate your parents and children? You better, Jesus told you to. Does this mean your supposed to push them down stairs and kick their dogs?

    Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    I'm sure I could show you examples of ungodly people who prefer modern versions to the KJV because they believe that they can justify their sins through the 'correct' rendering of such verses as may cause them distress in the King James. 'Sodomite? No, that says Temple Prostitute. God LOVES Sodomy, or He wouldn't have made me this way.'

    1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

    We should all try to have more charity and give each other the benefit of the doubt, no? I'm not trying to point any fingers or call anyone uncharitable, now, so please don't bother accusing me of it. But if I make a statement, and you think I'm talking about you, maybe you should examine your heart, instead of mine.
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    I apologise for misreading the post - you did say "so many hate" the KJV. Ths point still is valid though, NO ONE here hates the KJV and the comment is still unjust.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Most of us here (perhaps all) did just that by deploying a subjunctive answer to your subjunctive statement which IMO (and I am sorry if I was wrong) was worded in such a way as to satisfy the definition of accusation by innunedo.


    HankD
     
  11. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would hate to think this is a valid method for determining the perfect Bible version...

    The most hated version isn't the KJV, its the NIV. Does that mean that the NIV is the preserved Word for modern man?
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    I thought the NWT was the most hated - does that make it the best?
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What about the Latin Vulgate??

    HankD
     
  14. David J

    David J New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting all but let's get back to the subject.

    Question 1:

    Why did the AV1611 translators advocate using a variety of translations? Refer to the Message to the Reader for more info(I don't have the word for word reading on this PC. I will post it if needed later this weekend).

    Please explain to me why these men felt this was important enough to include with the AV1611.

    The many marginal notes in the AV1611 reflects the fact that the AV1611 translators did not think the KJV was the be all end all of English bibles.
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The AV 1611's translators themselves indicated they had NOT made "the" English translation as David J stated above. Here's an excerpt from their preface"to the reader". I have used modern spelling and divided the one paragraph into several paragraphs so as to make its content easier for some readers and lurkers to understand:


    “Some peradventure(perhaps) would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be so sound in this point. …

    It hath pleased God in his divine providence, here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness. …

    Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is not so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded.


    …We have not tied ourselves to a uniformity of phrasing, or to an identity of words, as some peradventure would wish that we had done.


    …Why should we be in bondage to them [words or syllables] if we may be free, use one precisely when we may use another no less fit, as commodiously? …We have … avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans.”


    The AV translators were much more straightforward in their thinking than are most of today's advocates of their work. They freely admit that many Greek or Hebrew words or phrases have more than one meaning in English and that they had done their best to render them according to the context...but still did NOT insist that only THEIR choices were absolutely correct. Unlike today's KJVOs, they respected the works of other translators.

    Again, I accuse some KJVOs of "selective agreement" with those translators, using as their criterion as to whether to believe them or not, their writings which agree with the KJVO myth, which came long after the last of those translators had died.

    Yes, the AV 1611's translators themselves nolly the argument that the KJV is GOD'S EXACT WORDS, and that any changes from the KJV wording is changing what God said. I believe that the best $30 or so investment that any serious English-using Bible student can make is in a replica AV 1611 such as the Hendrickson Publishing Co's edition.
     
  16. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    0
    For those interested, there is now an on-line 1611 KJV available at http://www.studylight.org. There you can do a parallel comparison of the 1611 KJV and more modern versions of the KJV to see how they really do differ.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for that source Keith M.
    However, i'll not be using it.
    It is way too intrusive. It only let me
    have one version at a time. It said i needed
    to permit cookies (I do???) It would not
    let me BACK out of the error page.
    E-Sword is a much better (and less intrusive)
    source.
     
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We have one thread about the LXX, but I thought this would be more appropriate in THIS thread since it's yet another KJVO thingie disproven by the AV 1611 itself.

    Many a KJVO says the LXX is a modern invention. Not according to the AV translators!! Here's what they had to say in their preface:

    • 7:1 While God would be known only in Jacob, and have his Name great in Israel, and in none other place, while the dew lay on Gideon's fleece only, and all the earth besides was dry; [See S.August.lib.12. contra Faust.c.32.] then for one and the same people, which spake all of them the language of Canaan, that is, Hebrew, one and the same original in Hebrew was sufficient.

    • 7:2 But when the fullness of time drew near, that the Sun of righteousness, the Son of God, should come into the world, whom God ordained to be a reconciliation through faith in his blood, not of the Jew only, but also of the Greek, yea, of all them that were scattered abroad; then, lo, it pleased the Lord to stir up the spirit of a Greek prince (Greek for descent and language), even of Ptolomy Philadelph, King of Egypt, to procure the translating of the Book of God out of Hebrew into Greek.

    • 7:3 This is the translation of the Seventy interpreters, commonly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gentiles by written preaching, as Saint John Baptist did among the Jews by vocal.

    • 7:4 For the Grecians, being desirous of learning, were not wont to suffer books of worth to lie moulding in kings' libraries, but had many of their servants, ready scribes, to copy them out, and so they were dispersed and made common.

    • 7:5 Again, the Greek tongue was well known and made familiar to most inhabitants in Asia, by reason of the conquest that there the Grecians had made, as also by the colonies, which thither they had sent.

    • 7:6 For the same causes also it was well understood in many places of Europe, yea, and of Africa too.

    • 7:7 Therefore the word of God being set forth in Greek, becometh hereby like a candle set upon a candlestick, which giveth light to all that are in the house, or like a proclamation sounded forth in the market-place, which most men presently take knowledge of; and therefore that language was fittest to contain the Scriptures, both for the first preachers of the Gospel to appeal unto for witness, and for the learners also of those times to make search and trial by.

    • 7:8 It is certain, that that translation was not so sound and so perfect, but that it needed in many places correction; and who had been so sufficient for this work as the Apostles or apostolic men?

    • 7:9 Yet it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to them to take that which they found (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather than by making a new, in that new world and green age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations as though they made a translation to serve their own turn, and therefore bearing witness to themselves, their witness not to be regarded.

    • 7:10 This may be supposed to be some cause, why the translation of the Seventy was allowed to pass for current.

    • 7:11 Notwithstanding, though it was commended generally, yet it did not fully content the learned, no, not of the Jews.

    • 7:12 For not long after Christ, Aquila fell in hand with a new translation, and after him Theodotion, and after him Symmachus: yea, there was a fifth and a sixth edition, the authors whereof were not known.

    • 7:13 These with the Seventy made up the Hexapla, and were worthily and to great purpose compiled together by Origen.

    • 7:14 Howbeit the edition of the Seventy went away with the credit, and therefore not only was placed in the midst by Origen, (for the worth and excellency thereof above the rest, as Epiphanius gathereth) [Epiphan. de mensur, et ponderibus.] but also was used by the Greek fathers for the ground and foundation of their commentaries. [See S.August. 2°. de doctrin, Christian. c. 15° Novell, diatax, 146.]

    • 7:15 Yea, Epiphanius above-named doth attribute so much unto it, that he holdeth the authors thereof not only for interpreters, but also for prophets in some respect: and Justinian the Emperor, enjoining the Jews his subjects to use specially the translation of the Seventy, rendereth this reason thereof, because they were, as it were, enlightened with prophetical grace. [profhtikhV wsper caritoV perilamyashV autouV.]


    Once again, we see the KJVOs disagree with those very translators they support only to the point that their work matches the much-later myth made about their work!

    Hey, Ed Edwards...Are you adding these double standared to your collection?
     
  19. KJVBibleThumper

    KJVBibleThumper New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Suggestion for RobyCop3,
    Since you lend so much credibility to the marginal notes I suggest you only read them instead of the rest of the Bible [ad hominem argument deleted]

    [ February 20, 2005, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
  20. KJVBibleThumper

    KJVBibleThumper New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would hate to think this is a valid method for determining the perfect Bible version...

    The most hated version isn't the KJV, its the NIV. Does that mean that the NIV is the preserved Word for modern man?
    </font>[/QUOTE]The NIV is the most hated version? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
     
Loading...