Know No

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by swaimj, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
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    Clearly there are verses that say that an unsaved person cannot know or cannot understand the gospel. Some of the brethren seem to take these in an absolute sense. But, Paul's indictment of the pagans in Romans 1 is based upon the fact that, not only CAN they know the truth, they DO know it. Their knowledge is the basis for their condemnation. Consider this statment:

    Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven againsts all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    How can it be argued that men CANNOT know or understand when it is so plain that they DO know and understand? Yea, what they already know and understand is the BASIS for their condemnation.
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Thank you swaimj, What a wonderful refutation of Calvinisms "totally incapable" point.
     
  3. johnp.

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    Hello swaimj.
    Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    Romans 8:7 seems pretty final to me. Is there a sense that this statement can be in and not be either absolute or false?

    Your first two sentences seem to me to contradict each other. What exactly do you mean by, "Clearly there are verses that say that an unsaved person cannot know or cannot understand the gospel."?

    As long as the indictment is to the Jews as well. That is why he is eager to go to Rome, 1:14-15, so that he can preach to both Jew and Gentile and thus he sets the scene for what is about to come. The demolishing of man and his righteousness.
    ...not only CAN they know the truth, they DO know it. What truth do they know? That since what may be known about God is plain to them..., 1:19,
    To who? The Godless and wicked. What is plain to them? What may be known by unregenerate man. What may be known by unregenerate man? It cannot be spiritual things they know can it? The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14. This is another absolute passage.
    If it is said that man can spiritually discern without the Holy Spirit then that would contradict scripture would it not?
    The uncircumcised heart is as stone. It has the requirements of the law written on it, Romans 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
    They can know that there is a judge from having a conscience.
    Only a fool would say there is no God when looking at the night sky or when looking at another human being, specially a pretty chick! :cool:
    ...because God has made it plain to them. Especially with the pretty chicks! ...so that men are without excuse. :cool:
    But how can anyone understand the gospel unless someone goes and tells them if that is what you are suggesting? If you think man is capable of accepting the gospel before rebirth then first, they must be told. Paul tells us that some are not told because all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...Romans 1:12. Second, you must overturn this truth, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14.
    What man can know of God is the evidence of nature, the beauty and magnificence of it all. Nature shows us what God is like. We understand love, because it is a God thing that we can understand at a natural level. Fallen natural level. But we cannot accept the Spiritual things of God because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7. And that rejection of the Spiritual things of God cannot be from those who do not know God's law in a concrete form.
    No it isn't! The basis of their condemnation is original sin. For it was in Adam that we all sinned. :cool: How can a man refuse a thing he knows not?
    PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

    johnp.
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
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  5. whatever

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    Paul says that God's power and divine nature are clearly seen by everyone. It does not follow that everyone can therefore understand the gospel.

    The point is that man rejected God, Who then gave man over to his own lusts. This is depravity and man cannot overcome it on his own. God must undo what He has done if any man is to be saved. So, this passage clearly affirms the "T".
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    The Scriptures say that God made his gospel simple to confound the wise. Seems it works!
     
  7. rc

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    I know you think your wise Wes... but...

    This is a very common misunderstanding by laymen.

    Whatever nailed it. This is talking about God's revealing of His power and divinity NOT any salvific plan.

    The funny thing is Paul shows that the complete depravity of man after those verses...

    Romans 1:21-24 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,


    Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING... they can NOT understand the Gospel...
    this parallels 1 Cor 2.14 They CAN NOT (note: speaks of UN ABILITY) UNDERSTAND !!

    No man seeks after God, no not one.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    rc,
    I'm glad you did!
     
  9. rc

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    I didn't. Don't try to give me any glory, it all goes to God. He found me. I didn't FIND Him.

    To bad you can't sing that song with me..

    I once was lost, but now I am FOUND. Not I HAVE found....
     
  10. swaimj

    swaimj
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    RC,
    If they are completely unable to understand, as you say, then how can it be said "when they knew God". It is not possible that, since the fall, they "knew God" and yet are completely unable to understand.
     
  11. johnp.

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    Hello swaimj.

    All men know of God because God left us without excuse.

    Judas rubbed shoulders with Him and did miracles in His name. To say that Judas did not know God would be false but he and those that are in the Church unsaved are accounted for below.
    2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    You see the scripture does tell us that we can know the way before we are saved but those who fail to combine their belief with faith are reckoned pigs and dogs never sheep.

    To imagine that the Israelites did not know God when a cloud followed them by day and a pillar of fire at night would be going too far but they failed.
    It is not possible that, since the fall, they "knew God" and yet are completely unable to understand. It is recorded throughout scripture. Balaam is a fine example of a person knowing God but not believing and seeking Him.
    HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest...
    Verse 3 says that once we believe we enter God's rest and only those in God's rest are saved.
    They failed because they did not trust God. They knew God with the evidence of their own eyes in the way they escaped Eygpt and survived but at the time of testing they rejected Him. To trust Him and cross the Jordan was all that was required but they would not enter His rest because they did not have faith.
    They did not trust God but looked to themselves and they thought they could not beat giants. They did not trust God.
    ...completely unable to understand. The understanding is to believe that Christ died for your sins. The only way man can believe this is to believe what is scriptural. Entering His rest means that we rest from our own works of righteousness and we do nothing to gain merit because we have no merit in us.
    The only way into God's rest is to believe Jesus died for your sins but if you believe you can fall away then you have not believed Jesus died for your sins and you have not entered His rest.
    John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. God's rest. Heb 4:3 Now we who have believed enter that rest...
    Yet Arminians can never enter that rest because they must continue doing for God. They must prove themselves worthy and that removes the glory of God in the salvation of men because salvation depends on you not God.

    If you would enter God's rest you must believe Jesus died for you. If you do not get your sins forgiven at the start you will not be in God's rest as you seek Him and that does not please God because He is only pleased by faith and faith is believing that Christ died for your sins.
    It might be useful to get your Greek and Hebrew out and check this word 'know'. I know my wife in a different way to the way I know my neighbours wife. :cool: The word has differing meanings.

    What do you think?

    johnp.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Oh, so you're one of those that God stubbs his toe on as he walks about looking for those who have faith in Him!
     
  13. johnp.

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    Amazing grace how sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me
    I once was lost but now am found
    Was blind, but now I see

    When we've been there ten thousand years
    Bright shining as the sun
    We've no less days to sing his praise
    Than when we first begun

    Amazing grace how sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me
    I once was lost but now am found
    Was blind, but now I see
     
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Truly Amazing!
     
  15. johnp.

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    Truly.
     
  16. swaimj

    swaimj
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    The verse does not say "when they knew OF God", it says "when they knew God".
     
  17. johnp.

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    swaimj.

    What does 'RO 1:21 For although they knew God' mean?

    johnp
     

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