Knowing God's a 'personal achievement'?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. convicted1

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  2. DHK

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    Why "what" wasn't addressed?
    That statement was on page 20 of a thread that went 33 pages and was closed in the early part of 2014. It is over a year old. Why does any part of it need addressing now. It was debated and set at rest.
     
  3. convicted1

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    I am asking for other's opinions about such a heretical statement. Do you agrre with what was posted in that link?

    Others have joined here since then and I want their input. This needs to be addressed...
     
  4. DHK

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    I probably would agree if I look at the scripture, the context and read the thread. One statement pulled out of the context of the thread doesn't make a lot of sense. Just a post or so earlier, Skandelon's conversation with Biblicist went like this:
    That gives some background.
    Obviously there is a matter of terminology being used and how it is defined.
    Skan is not a Calvinist and doesn't use the same vocabulary in the same way.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Thank you for that dialogue....


    However you slice it, 'personal achievement' is something that person did. What did any of us do to be saved? What is there to boast about in the 'personal achievement' of knowing God?

    I wanted nothing to do with Him. I hated God...not hate as in a literal hatred, but I hated Him in that I didn't want to serve Him. God called me out of darkness into His marvellous Light. I boast in what God did for me, not what I did for me. I did nothing, and He did it all....


    If we boast, we are to boast in the Lord, not in our 'personal achievements'...
     
  6. convicted1

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    DHK,


    I know there can be a certain level of ambiguity on here, but there's none of it in regards to 'personal achievement'. Those words speak for themselves and need no redefining.


    If I lose 10 lbs, save up $10,000, run a marathon, work my way up to vice-president of a company, those are personal achievements I accomplished. Not so with salvation. I have nothing within my self that is a 'personal achievement' in regards to my salvation....
     
  7. Reformed

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    I read the thread that you provided the link to. Skandelon used a poor choice of words to make his point about boasting in the Lord. Salvation is not a personal achievement. This is the crux of the Monergist vs. Synergist debate The Synergist believes, admitted or not, that they cooperate with God in salvation. God calls but stops short of regenerating before the sinner believes. This is a text book case of cooperation. Skandelon was only being consistent with his theology.

    But as for what it means to "boast in the Lord", look at 1 Corinthians 1:26-31:

    Paul was dealing with the dysfunctional Corinthian church. Rivalries and worldly boasting were running rampant and Paul had to address these things. Paul used the word "boast" to make a point. Paul was not saying, "Go brag that you were smart enough to trust in God". The word boast "kauchomai" (καυχώμενος) also means to "take pride". The word could be used in the context of a parent taking pride in their child performing well in a school play or in sports. The parent is not one on stage or on the field, it is the child. Yet the parent is filled with pride over the child's achievement. At the end of the play it is the child that gets to bow and receive the applause. It is the child who gets to celebrate the win with his teammates. In a similar way we boast in the Lord; giving Him all the glory and praise He rightfully deserves. In no way is our salvation a personal achievement.
     
  8. DHK

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    I once looked up in the Theopedia on-line encyclopedia "ordo salutis."
    I think a thread on this topic might clear up some things.
    The reason non-Cals are synergists is because the non-cal puts faith first. IOW, faith is a "condition" to being regenerated/saved.
    Whereas the Calvinist puts regeneration first and faith follows as a result of being regenerated so that one can be saved. Also many Cals define "faith" as a "work" which is wrong, and therefore look at non-cals having a work-salvation, which is in error. (Ask SBM).

    Faith is not a work whether it comes before or after regeneration. Paul makes that clear in Romans 4:3-5. We are synergists because we demand faith before regeneration as a "condition" for salvation (and regeneration) and that is all.
    There is no need to look at this as a man-centered theology; it is not.
    Salvation is all of God, which we all believe.

    For it is by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves...It is not of works.

    Skan seemed to be talking about boasting in the Lord--which we are commanded to do.
    And he seemed to be referring to his personal relationship with the Lord. If one does not have a personal relationship with the Lord he is not saved.

    Are there personal achievements in this life? Of course there are. Paul speaks of rewards. He speaks of crowns. He speaks of a race to be run. He speaks of victories. He also speaks of failures.

    What did Paul say at the end of his life:
    2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
    2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    --What an achievement.
     
  9. DHK

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    The next time he posted (after some Cals jumped all over him--like in here), Skan said:
     
  10. Reformed

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    Monergists do not put regeneration first (predestination precedes regeneration), they put regeneration before faith (there is a difference). Synergists place faith before regeneration because they reject original sin and total inability.

    I am not aware of responsible Monergists who would refer to faith as a work (salvifically speaking).

    This is always and anon our point of disagreement. I am not going to use the phrase "man centered theology". Synergists use that line against Monergists thinking that we are followers of John Calvin. We are not. We are Monergists because we are convinced by Scripture alone.

    Skan will have to speak for him/herself about that.

    When it comes to the work of the Spirit we should never refer to it as a personal achievement. The term denotes something the individual has done on their own or with the cooperation of others. But when it comes to the work of the Spirit, especially in relation to salvation, it is a dangerous term. I do understand the term fits neatly into the Synergist view. Synergists cooperate with God in salvation, ergo it is an honest statement to say salvation is a personal achievement. But it is honestly wrong.

    1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

    Everything we have received comes from God. We can take credit for nothing. There is no personal achievement.
     
    #10 Reformed, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2015
  11. Reformed

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    Go back to my first post in this thread and deal with my argument point by point.
     
  12. DHK

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    I find nothing in his post to say he is speaking of salvation. In our personal walk with Christ we achieve many things. If we don't we remain static, carnal, and do not grow. That was the problem that Paul addressed in the Corinthian Church in 1Cor.3:1-5. He could not feed them with meat but only with milk because they were immature, that is, carnal.
    So Skan's first post (the OP)
    The "knowing God" does not refer to salvation but the Christian life, our relation to him involves a vital and real relationship in which we are able to "boast" or as the KJV says "glory" in. Skan, no doubt was referring to these scriptures:

    1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    2 Corinthians 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
    In many other translations the word for glory is "boast."

    2 Corinthians 10:17 But "he who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." WEB

    This nothing to do with salvation. If you read the pages before and after this quote it is evident that he is speaking of the Christian life, and not salvation.
    I don't believe Skan was referring to this passage or that this passage has any bearing on what Skan was saying.
    Not once did he refer anything to salvation. Can you give me any conclusive quote where he did?
     
  13. Reformed

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    Let me broaden my response. It does not matter whether it is salvation or the Christian life en toto. Neither is a personal achievement. The term itself puts the credit on the individual instead of God. The individual achieves nothing. Both salvation and obedience in the Christian life are due to the work of the Holy Spirit. Even our ability to obey God is a work of the Spirit. It is a proud heart that seeks to take credit for something that God has done.
     
  14. DHK

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    I think you take this too far. Without personal achievements in our lives we would be inert. The Lord expects us to set goals. Certainly we give the Lord for what we accomplish, but it is through his strength we do accomplish things. For you to infer that I do nothing and God does everything, is contrary to Scripture.
    It is Paul that said:
    Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
    --He was speaking of himself, as he often did.
    Paul went on three different missionary journeys.
    Paul wrote 13 different epistles.
    Paul established over 100 different churches.
    Paul accomplished much in his life, but he did it through the power of Christ.

    Jesus said:
    Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    --Seek God first, but then we can expect achievements.

    When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ we will be rewarded for things done on this earth, whether good or bad.
    --My life is not passive. I must do what I do for Christ. But it is I that must work.
     
  15. Reformed

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    You are conflating our responsibility as Christians with personal achievement. There are numerous texts that command us to be obedient. "Let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth...thou shall not kill...flee youthful lusts..." et al. Personal achievement drips with pride. "Look what I have done!"

    You wrote, "Seek God first, but then we can expect achievements". I do not see where this is a biblically based statement. I do see a biblical statement that tells each of us that every good and perfect thing comes down from above, from the Father of light (James 1:17). I know of a biblical statement that tell us we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3). All these things come from God. Even the rewards that men receive will be thrown down at His feet in recognition that all the glory belongs to God (Revelation 4:10).
     
  16. DHK

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    I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me.
    What did Paul mean?

    1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Gods people believe this;


    10 When thou hast eaten and art full, then thou shalt bless the Lord thy God for the good land which he hath given thee.

    11 Beware that thou forget not the Lord thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:

    12 Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein;

    13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;

    14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;
    15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;

    16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

    17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
    18 But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
     
  18. DHK

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    God scripture. I don't have an argument with Scripture. Never did.
     
  19. Reformed

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    This is not a passage about personal achievements. This is a passage about obedience and progressive sanctification. None of these things can we take credit for.
     
  20. DHK

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    Lay up for yourself treasure in heaven where thieves cannot break in.

    Whether therefore ye eat or drink do all to the glory of God.

    Everything we do, we do both in obedience and to the glory of God. No one disagrees with that. However, we don't simply sit as a bump on a log and "bask in the grace of God," so to speak. There is no such thing. As you mentioned: there is obedience and progressive sanctification, and in that it is cooperation with the Holy Spirit as he leads and guides.
    Paul, at the end of his life, enumerated some of his accomplishments.
    When he wrote to the Corinthians he enumerated much more.
    He said to them in defense of his apostleship: Do they think they are apostles; I more--and then proceeded to show them how he was qualified--not by deeds done but by sufferings endured. At the end of that chapter he tells them that he has the signs of an Apostle--the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.
     

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