L=Limited Atonement

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. annie

    annie
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    I am new to the board.
    I only learned of the Reformed Theology this year.
    I do believe that is what I am.
    Anxious to hear others thoughts on the L of TULIP.

    Limited Atonement means to me that Jesus died on the cross to atone for those elected.
     
  2. Monergist

    Monergist
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    The work of atonement was completed by His sacrificial death and is applied to those for whom he died. The atonement is not 'limited' in any way except in this regard; it is 'limited' to the elect--those for whom He died.

    He did not do half a work. He finished the work completely. He did not do an almost finished work that wouldn't be complete until a 'dead' man responded. He finished the work completely. He did not die for some sins and leave some sins unpaid (some arguments lead to the conclusion that He died for all sins except that of unbelief), He paid for all the sins (including unbelief) of all the elect. His work in this respect is not 'limited;' it is whole, complete, sufficient. Not like the Arminian "limited" atonement that has half-a-savior dying for everybody but saving no-one.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Monergist;
    Wrong again my friend God's word say so;

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    The whole world is what Calvin said as well are you sure you're a Calvinist? ;)
    May God Bless You
    Mike
     
  4. Monergist

    Monergist
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    Calvin's comments on I John 2:2

     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Anne,

    Jesus died for every human sinner. He does not play favorites. [Deuteronomy 10:17; John 3:17-18; Acts 16:31; Romans 2:11; Romans 3:22; Romans 5:1; I Timothy 2:4 (Greek word meaning 'wishes' all men & women to be saved); I Timothy 2:6 (Jesus ransom is for all sinners); Hebrews 2:9 (He tasted death for every sinner); Hebrews 11:6 (the sinner is told to seek the Lord); II Peter 3:9; I John 2:2 (Jesus died not only for select sinners, but for all his lost creation); I John 5:13; Revelation 3:20 (Here Christians are to let Jesus re-enter their lives by opening the door, and no less is offered to the sinners; He is knocking at their heart's door.; Revelation 22:17f.

    This is the message from God to His people so they will witness and preach to every sinner. [Mark 16:15]

    Blessings on your study of Jesus' words.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Jesus atonement is sufficient for all sinners, but is only effective in those who believe and trust in Him; these people are called His elect.
     
  7. annie

    annie
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    That's a great way to word it.
    Simple but direct. [​IMG]
     
  8. mprivett

    mprivett
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    My one year old posted this before I was ready. My real post is below
     
  9. mprivett

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    Did the high priest make atonement for the sins of all the nations on the Day of Atonement? Or just for Israel? Surely you wouldn't argue that Israel was not elected/chosen specially by God? Is God unjust to not choose Philistia or Egypt?

    Where is the freedom of God to choose some as vessels of mercy and some as vessels of wrath? Christ came to be the ransom for many (Mark 10:45), not all.

    I don't really care what the cross was sufficient for. I care what it did, which is clear. If Jesus died and made atonement for every single individual, how is God just in punishing anybody for their sins?
     
  10. johnp.

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    The silver bullet don't work on Christians but I like shooting with them.

    If anyone believes that Jesus made a sacrifice for the sins of everyone that ever lived then the scriptures are wrong when they say that the sin's of Eli's sons would never be forgivable. Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli,"The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering." Isaiah 3:14.

    He did not die for all.

    johnp.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Did God save Ruth the Moabite? Apparently, God did not pass by that nation if they would have yielded to Him.

    Was Rahab saved spiritually speaking? She was from Jericho before the Jews went into the promised land of Israel. Also, Psalm 87:3 suggests that people knew the Lord in Babylon, Philistia, Tyre, and Ethiopia. Was the Ethiopian man saved in the N.T. statements, him living in northern Africa?

    Was St. Luke a saved man?
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    That's what it means in some circles. But limited atonement is a religious myth! Stop and think a minute. God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Scriptures declare that we are made in the image of God. This mystical "elect" cannot be identified by man because we are all made in the image of God. So, how can you tell one image of God from another? Well, ya can't! It is only by their fruits that ye shall know them.

    Now if you were God, and you had all these little images of yourself, how would you pick and choose which to keep and which to discard? Wouldn't you provide them with a test to see which ones would do better than others? Wouldn't your test be one that would be completely fair to each and everyone of them? Wouldn't that test be one that makes an indellible irreversable change in the lives of those who were willing to take the test?

    Well God's test is this. He gave us His word. He gave us His Holy Spirit to illuminate his word to those who would believe. AND, He gave us his only begotten Son, to atone for Sin, so that we are no longer under the penalty of sin. The test is whether or not we will, with all the help that he gives us, come to FAITH in Him. If we do, we receive a "passing" grade, passing from death unto life everlasting with Jesus. If we don't come to faith in God we fail, and God judges us and casts us into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)

    The atonement of sin, is Just that. Atonement is not for any one, it is not for a person, it is for sin, all the sins of the world in all time, once for ALL. I suppose if one looks at it with a skewed perspective, one could say that atonement is limited, but according to scripture it is limited to ALL the sins of the world, but not for the sins of Mars, or Jupiter, or other galaxies, only for this world...earth. That is the only way one could limit atonement.

    So, you see Annie, "limited atonement is a religios myth".
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes, Outwest.

    This thread is limited atonement not total depravity, what do you mean, 'If we were God'? Do you mean that we can know from what we would do what God will do! Such arrogance. Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
    If you think scripture says that God is fair then why did He not give everyone the same chance He gave Adam and Eve? That is the only test to make if God were fair. All from the same start line.

    The test is whether or not we will... Scripture please. Because He says do this or do that we cannot presume that the ability is there for us only the responsibility. Unless of course you say we can keep the law. You don't say we can keep the law do you? If you say no then you must say that He commands us to actions we cannot do. If we don't come to faith in God we fail... So we start from a neutral position do we? Scripture please. Those that fail the test 'remain dead'. They do not become dead.

    You say;
    God says;
    "The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering." Isaiah 3:14.
    The word of God. Limited atonement. I only need one to disprove a general universal atonement. Limited atonement is there in front of your eyes. It is indisputable and should change your doctrine!

    That is indeed the way we must look at things. From God's perspective not our own.

    johnp.
     
  14. johnp.

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    One more.

    Could you explain what you mean by 'God's help' please. I thought you were saying we had free will. Do we need help to use free will Wes?

    johnp.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    You are right - that is what 5 Pt Calvinists mean by that.

    I am Arminian - so I believe the text of 1John 2:2 Christ is the atoning sacrifice for "OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    That is who He died for - and that is the price He paid.

    But atonement is more than price paid - it is the process that God identifies in Lev 16 and Christ fulfills the High Priestly role in that process just as Heb 8-10 tells us that He does.

    So He died for the world - and paid the price for the sins of the whole world. But because Atonement includes repentance - only the saints are atoned for.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. mprivett

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    Did the high priest of Leviticus atone for the sins of the whole world? Or just the twelve tribes of Israel? Surely you wouldn't say that atonement was unlimited.
     
  17. Matt Black

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    The sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood was ineffective on two counts:-

    1. First, it only applied, as you rightly imply, to the Jewish nation, which was rather bad news for the rest of us.

    2. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it did not bestow salvation.

    Thanks be to God that we now have Jesus Christ Whose offer of salvation is neither ineffective nor limited!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    The Court of the Gentiles under both covenants was there for the express purpose so that any foreigner, other than Jews, might enter and be saved. [Revelation 11:2] This passage, of course, speaks of a future Great Tribulation Temple that will be erected after the church is take to Heaven. The two prophets will be preaching to the world to repent because Jesus will soon return at His brilliant Second Coming.
     
  19. dattgog

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    So therefore mprivett, you are correct. Regardless of how the atoning sacrifice in the levitical priesthood differed from the once for all atoning sacrifice of Jesus, it was limited, and not unlimited. Thanks for pointing that out!
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    But, were the Gentiles under 'the Law'?

    If not under the law, would atonement apply?

    If a gentile voluntarily submitted to the priests of Israel, then the sacrifices for the atonement of sins could be applied.
     

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