1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Lack of education on logic the problem

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Take this quote from the first page:
    Or this one by Winman on page two:
    Or this one on page 5 by webdog
    Or this one from Alive in Christ on page 8:

    Or this one from Skandelon on page 11:

    Or this one by In the Light on the same page:
    In Skan and ITL's posts they are asking whether these things are logical in an attempt to imply that you can't apply logic to God. That's the point of this thread- to show how poorly educated so many members of bb are concerning logic and how uncommitted they are to its authority over their theologies.


    I could go on and on. But I think I made my point.
     
    #21 Luke2427, Jan 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2013
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Q: When Christ was walking the earth was he a human and was He God?

    A: Yes. And isn't that a contradiction for human reasoning?
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    No it is not a contradiction.

    I am mortal human flesh and everlasting spirit.

    Those things do not contradict each other.

    An object has takes up space in three dimensions at the same time: height, width and depth.

    The fact that an object is high wide and deep is not contradictory.

    There is nothing about the hypostatic union that violates any fundamental law of logic.
     
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of course, you can prove that you have an everlasting spirit, correct?




    Yes, that's all well and good. Humans can see the three dimensions, measure them and manipulate them with mathematics.

    Nothing about it that violates God's rules of logic. But human rules of logic? That's a different story.
     
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    Well....that can be true if Jesus' incarnation was only humanity with humanity. However, Jesus' incarnation (the hypostatic union) is the union of a human body (with all its functions) with the divine essence (with its functions.) Ontologically this is a hugely significant union.

    I agree it isn't, inherently, contradictory. However, we need to be mindful that the union isn't like the flesh combined with soul. This is entirely different, the flesh (sarx) fused with the divine (logos.) Massively different.
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23

    What does that have to do with anything- whether or not I can prove it?


    Explain to me what are these "human" rules of logic and how they are different from divine laws of logic.
     
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Different, sure.

    But it does not violate the law of noncontradiction in the same way that the soul and flesh of man co-existing do not violate that law.

    That is why my anecdote is applicable and did not require correction- unless the goal is perhaps an effort to "humble me" since you perceive I am trying to do that to others?
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Being both infinite and finite simultaneously doesn't violate the law of non contradiction?
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    I "think" being a mathematician, that perhaps we might be confusing logic and absolute truth. Logic, appears to be an invention of man....a linguistic an symbolic exercise in semantics. Although I would agree that God is not illogical, I would hesitate to make the claim that logic is some necessary attribute of God such as the "omnis". In our human experience logic does at times lead to paradoxes a google search will reveal some of the paradoxes that can be obtained even with logical logic.

    Achilles and the Tortoise
    The Paradox of the heap
    The Liar Paradox (which perhaps the apostle Paul addressed)
    The Problem of the Specious Present
     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You cannot say that having a fleshly body and having an everlasting spirit is not a contradiction unless in fact, you have an everlasting spirit.




    How about you list the divine laws of logic and then I'll take a shot at explaining how they are different from human's. Because I don't know what the divine rules of logic are.
     
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    God did not become finite when he took on flesh.

    Your premise is flawed. God became a man IN ADDITION to being God- not in contradistinction to being God.
    While God he became man and while a man he was still God.


    This is perfectly logical.

    A tiger kills his first man. He is now a maneater. He is still as much tiger as he ever was- he simply, while remaining a tiger, IN ADDITION to being a tiger also became a man-eater.

    This does not violate any law of logic.

    The addition of something does not violate logic.
     
    #31 Luke2427, Jan 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2013
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    I am familiar with those paradoxes and I still think logic is of God.

    God is internally consistent. That is where logic comes from.

    It is what God is- internally consistent.

    The reason anything means anything is because the source of EVERYTHING is God who is, always has been and must always be logical.
     
  13. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    So, while incarnated in flesh...Jesus still had access to omnipresence?
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Why can't I say it?

    Why do I have to have one to say it is not a contradiction.

    I say a man can have both silver and gold in his safe at the same time. I don't have to have them to say he does.






    No, no. You are the one who said that there are these mysterious "human laws of logic" in contradistinction from the divine laws of logic. I have never heard of these human laws. I would like to know what they are and how they differ from the divine ones.
     
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    PJesus, I think scripture is filled with logical conundrums....which I prefer to refer to as "tensions".

    Scripture is "God breathed, yet written by fallible humans"
    The tension between sin and righteousness
    The tension of the hypostatic union.
    .....
     
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Tensions do not equate violation of logic.

    There is nothing about God inspiring men to write in their own style exactly what he wants to communicate that in any way violates any fundamental law of logic, for example.

    What we have to e careful about doing is saying "I don't understand something therefore it is not logical."

    I don't understand brain surgery but the things about it that I do know do not themselves violate logic.
     
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Might as well say anything then--My pinky fingernail is larger than my dorsal fin. There is no contradiction.

    Then I can say I have a dorsal fin.


    You are the one that asserted that God created logic. You are the one starting multiple threads bemoaning the idea that people are not using God's logic to formulate their theology. Go on then--list for us God's laws of logic. I am lacking education on logic, that is the problem. So educate me.
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23

    You can say you have a dorsal fin. Yes. There is nothing illogical about that statement. Weird- yes. Unnatural- probably. Illogical- no.

    I have stated that the three fundamental laws of logic come from God numerous times. They exist ONLY because God is internally consistent.

    Now it's your turn. What are these man-made laws you talk about?
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Certainly. WHILE walking the earth he was at the same time upholding all things by the word of his power.
     
  20. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    Uh, I'm gonna give you the night to think about that answer. :)
     
Loading...