Larry King show - Priest?

Brian:

I saw a "Father O'Brian" from Notre Dame University on the talk shows before. This man is not in line with Church teaching and is, IMHO, a liberal to the extreme. Why he is still in a teaching position at a Catholic University is beyond me, but then again, Notre Dame is by no means considered orthodox in all their teachings. I would not be surprised if this was your culprit.

God bless...

 

I just gave a tour around the Franciscan University campus yesterday afternoon for a diocesan priest who was once a student of Fr. Richard P. McBrien (Logan, I believe this is who you are referring to) at Notre Dame. This Fr. McBrien is a dissenting professor of theology at Notre Dame who has written quite a bit (he's also a diocesan priest for the Archdiocese of Hartford, Connecticut). He's absolutely notorious in the Catholic world, and IMHO, he should be laicized. One interesting little tidbit on this man is that he only wears his clerics when he appears on television.

His well-known text is Catholicism, which, even in the latest edition, includes dissent from official Magisterial teaching. For examples, visit http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1994/sep1994p14_835.html

For a PetersNet summary of this priest, visit http://www.petersnet.net/browse/954.htm

[ April 22, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Your right Carson...thats the one! He was on "Night Line" a few months ago and the way he presented his views made me wonder if he was really Catholic.

 

(Catholic Convert - Quotes)

"Or is there possibility, in God's great mercy, that the pagan who
has never heard but acted in love, will be introduced to Christ on
the Great Day of Judgment and given the opportunity to fall down
and worship the One Whom He never heard of?

"He, like all Protestants, thought that his understanding of Scripture was
more precise than that of the men who learned directly from Jesus
and then passed that on to the next generation."


"It takes humility to submit to the authority of another, especially when one
thinks that one knows better than the other."

(Singer)

Well isn't that a stretch of the imagination to award heathen pagans
with eternal life based based on their love and ACTIONS while denying
a God fearing Protestant who is claiming the blood of Jesus by grace
through faith for his fare into heaven !!!!!!


As for humility to submit to authority, I can introduce you to people from
my former cult who know a multitude about submitting to the wiles of their
peers........to no potential gain whatsoever.

The good news is, there are members and ex members who correctly
credit their worthiness to the blood of Jesus in the same nature that those
dreaded Protestants do.

That leaves the RCC whose members are still
making the claim of assigned superiority and inviting the curse with their
announcement...."Lo, Christ is here...Lo, Christ is there".

"Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold,
the kingdom of God is within you. "

 

Hey guys here's a link to the transcript for the Larry King Live show you are talking about:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0304/20/lkl.00.html

Also the Priest on the show, his name is:

Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic priest and host of the international TV show "The Word in the World"

Now I have never heard of this TV show.


LaRae

 

LaRae -

Thanks for finding that!

As for what it says...I don't know..I thought that Deepak Chopra was hilarious! Though...I think he might actually have been serious, which is not so funny.

In Christ,
jason

 

LaRae -

Thanks for finding that!

As for what it says...I don't know..I thought that Deepak Chopra was hilarious! Though...I think he might actually have been serious, which is not so funny.

In Christ,
jason [/QUOTE]


Well I skimmed thru it and Deepak is way out there....I saw him on Oprah years ago and he made me squeamish then with some of his ummmmm ideas.

You're right..it's funny...until you think about what he is really saying.

I guess I need to go read the whole transcript ...to find out what this Priest was really meaning/saying.


LaRae

 

"ummmm ideas" pretty much says it all. An odd fellow with odd, ummmm, ideas .

There were a couple of points that made my ears pick up, but for the most part, the priest kept back and didn't say too much.

I can see where those couple of lines could give someone the impression about the priest, but I personally was thrown off by the "ideas" that Deepak was stating more than anything.

Overall, I think the medium (TV show with people of different faiths confined to a one hour show) does not make for very good discussion. At times, this could have been very Baptist Boardish.

In Christ,
jason

 

Interesting.

You see, the Jews and the Rommans considered the followers of Jesus as a "cult."

Are you also "done" with Jesus?

Just curious............

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

Singer:

You put words in my mouth that I did not say:

Please do not put words or intentions in my mouth which I did not state nor mean. Thank you.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

 

I was reading Augustine a while back and came across this:


http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-05/npnf1-05-16.htm#P1888_814447

Chapter 10 [IX.]-He Could Not Be Justified, Who Had Not Heard of the Name of Christ; Rendering the Cross of Christ of None Effect.

But they say: "He is not condemned; because the statement that all sinned in Adam, was not made because of the sin which is derived from one's birth, but because of imitation of him." If, therefore, Adam is said to be the author of all the sins which followed his own, because he was the first sinner of the human race, then how is it that Abel, rather than Christ, is not placed at the head of all the righteous, because he was the first righteous man? But I am not speaking of the case of an infant. I take the instance of a young man, or an old man, who has died in a region where he could not hear of the name of Christ. Well, could such a man have become righteous by nature and free will; or could he not? If they contend that he could, then see what it is to render the cross of Christ of none effect,27 to contend that any man without it, can be justified by the law of nature and the power of his will. We may here also say, then is Christ dead in vain28 forasmuch as all might accomplish so much as this, even if He had never died; and if they should be unrighteous, they would be so because they wished to be, not because they were unable to be righteous. But even though a man could not be justified at all without the grace of Christ, he would absolve him, if he dared, in accordance with his words, to the effect that, "if a man were of such a character, because he could not possibly have been of any other, he would be free from all blame."

 

Lisa --

Regardless of St. Augustines's personal opinion, which is what this particular writing is, since it carries no particular councilular authority to it, the Bible seems to state a more merciful position of God regarding those who have never heard:

Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

St. Paul, writing under divine inspiration, states the terms by which ALL MEN and WOMEN shall be judged. It is their WORKS (deeds) which shall be examined under the clear light of God's truth. Nothing here is said about how WELL, CLEARLY, or THOROUGHLY they have knowledge of God. Indeed, as we shall see later on, it is possible to have the influence of the Holy Spirit within one's heart without a clear and precise understanding of theology.

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

In order for you to obey the truth, you must KNOW the truth. How can you obey that which you do not know? This is proof that there is a much greater burden upon those who have heard of the Lord Jesus Christ than upon those who have not.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Plus, upon those who DO EVIL, there willa be a recompense of that evil which they have done. But is being ignorant of truth the same as a willing doing of evil?

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Well, this just kills the Protestant paradigm, for it says that those who HEAR the law are justified (so called "faith alone", the hearing of Jesus and believing on Him). Scripture here says that we must not only "hear" the law, we must DO it. And DOING involves the works of love and charity which Christ laid out in His Gospels.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

LOOK!!!!!! When the Gentiles, who have not the law (i.e., they have NEVER heard of the true and living God of Israel, or of Jesus the Christ), do the things contained in the law, they are a law unto themselves.

And how is this, except that, as verse 15 states, the Holy Spirit has written that law into their very being. You Protestants restrain the work of the Holy Spirit to only the hearing of the Bible. You limit both His ability and His mercy to others, for while you revel in the fact that you have come to faith, you easily dismiss the pagan and consign him to hell, not realizing that but for God's mercy to you, it could be you laboring in the darkness of not having heard of Christ.

God will not hold men accountable for that which they have not heard, but He will hold them accountable for that which He has placed in their consciences and that they have not obeyed. Thus, if the pagan has a conscience that there is only one God, by the work of the Holy Spirit within his heart, and he nonetheless sets up idols and worships them over his conscience telling him that there is but one Creator, he will be accountable for rebelling against his conscience and the law which the Holy Spirit has placed in his heart.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

THINK of what is being said here. If the Gentiles, the uncircumcized, keep the righteousness of the law (which is the law of love - love being the fulfillment of the whole law) Scripture says here that the pagan who does this shall be counted as "circumcized" (i.e. A COVENANT MAKER AND KEEPER WITH GOD) His uncircumcision (state of being out of the covenant of God) shall be counted as being circumcision (state of being IN COVENANT with God). Do you realize what St. Paul is saying here? I'm sure the Jews did and it SCANDALIZED them and caused them to persecute him. He removed them from the position of being "God's elect" and said, in essence, that anyone who kept the law of God, even the pagans trapped in "invincible ignorance", would be considered as a covenant keeper.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There are those who are Christians and who know it, and there are those who are Christians who do not yet know it. It is a matter of the HEART -- NOT of outward knowledge, proper theology, or precision of intellect. The Great Day of God's Judgment will separate the wheat from the chaff, and there will be some who were outward and professing Christians in their lives, who will be found to have not been so in their hearts.

I will take the Biblical and divine explanation of St. Paul over the musings of St. Augustine

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Addendum: Having said that, let me hasten to add one thing. Re: the King show. This apostate priest should have said something to the effect of this:

"Larry, there is only one God and one Savior, Christ Jesus who is the Messiah. You and all others need to come to Him for salvation."

Just because I post the above defense of God's mercy to those who have never heard of Christ does not in any way mean that I subscribe to a universalist position. All who have heard of the name of Jesus Christ are under responsibility to make Him both Savior and Lord, and to not do so is rebellion, pure and simple. I am only suggesting that those who NEVER heard will be under God's mercy, but in all reality, those numbers (of those who have never heard) are getting almost insignificant, and mankind is without excuse before God.

 

Brother Ed,

Good post! The bottom line is that God IS Just, and no one will be able to accuse Him of being otherwise on Judgement Day.

DT

 

Ed,

Did you really say that?! I think the RCC would beg to differ with you in regards to Augustine. You surprise me!!

 

Hi Bri,

Maybe I can help a bit.

" It was the one about leaving someone who has never heard the truth be. "

Well first of all the Church does not say that anyone who is formally outside of it is saved. But the Church does hold out the hope and even believes it is likely that some will. How many? Only God knows. Yet we are to pray as if none are and hope as if all are. Our will must be like God's for he will's that none be lost. I have not read this whole thread but will try to later. But the fact is that none will be saved without Christ by their own actions. God's grace works in the lives of all men to move them toward him. HE has implanted his laws on their hearts (Rom 2:15). God will judge all based on how they respond to that grace. And at the moment of judgement at the end of their lives when they come face to face with him, if they have never heard his name, they must call on it to be saved. I would say that you make exceptions to the rule that all must believe in Jesus also. For you say that children who have not reached the age of reason are saved (correct me if I am wrong). Most Protestants teach that babies who are not able to understand Christ are saved. What about the mentally retarded. God's judgement is not as simple as saying a name. God is merciful yet just.


"I have more anyway.
What do we do with the scripture that says the "wages of sin is death" and what about "no, not one is righteous""

Yep, the wages of sin are death. No doudt about it and no man can in any way work his way out of going to hell. He must have the grace of Jesus Christ working in his life to overcome sin and to be cleansed from it. Nevertheless some apparently were righteous who did not know Christ. For God says of Cornelius:

Acts 10:22
They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."

Now Cornelius was not a Jew, yet he was righteous. Was his righteous by his own action. Nope, he was righteous by the grace of God that works in all men's lives. Thus it is not a contradiction when the Bible says "there is none righteous, no not one" and yet Cornelius who did not know Christ until Peter came and preached to him was righteous. We are made righteous by grace and grace was at work in his life, even though he did not know from where it came. And God provided for his salvation.


"In CC theology can I assume that a person is born heading toward Heaven and sins himself away from Heaven? or is it the opposite, a person is born heading toward Hell but works their way to Heaven.

It is neither. We are "born in iniquity" as David says in Psalm 51. Original sin it is called. With it we cannot make it to heaven. But the grace of Jesus Christ through baptism cleanses our soul. At that moment we are saved. We can however fall in to sin. If we sin greviously the life of grace within us dies. There is no work that can restore us to life and without Christ we would once again be doomed. But he provided for the sacrement of reconcilliation (John 20:21-25) by which we can restore ourselves to his goodness and grace and once again become righteous in his sight. So we cannot work our way back to being saved as you state. It takes his grace. Works come in to play for they are like excercise as a good diet to the health of the Body is like the Eucharist to the health of the soul. They maintain us so that we have strenght against sin. Virtue (i.e. works) counteract vice so that when we are doing good we do not do evil and become strengthened against it. Romans 8:38 give a whole list of things that cannot separate us from the love of God. Interestingly enough the one thing that is missing is sin. Thus we must have the strength to avoid doing the evil and doing the good. TBut we do not do good on our own "lest we boast" for it is the grace within us that allows us to do good. St. Augustine in his confessions recognizes this when he repents of the things he would have done had he not come to Christ. The point being had he not come to Christ he would be spending his time doing evil, yet by grace Augustine did much good. "you shall know them by their fruits".

"Finally, I struggle the most with the "works for Heaven" part of this theory. There is no faith involved yet scriptures says we are saved by faith"

Being saved by faith does not rule out the need for works. Only once in the new testament is faith used with the word alone. That is in James 2:24. I am sure you know it is proceeded by the word not. Faith has to be an active faith. Moses would never have freed the Jews, had he not acted on his faith. Noah and his family would have all drowned had he sat back and said I have faith, God save me. But he became obedient to God based on his faith and built the ark which saved both he and his family. Joshua would never have made the promised land had he not acted on his faith. And on and on. There is noone in scripture who believed and yet did not act but were saved for "faith without works is dead".

Blessings..

Gerald

 

Brother Ed:

You are promoting a church here and not the gospel of our Lord.

Me.........Without your church are sufficient in Jesus.

You........Without your church would feel inferior.

If you can't agree that you can get to heaven without your church,
then your emphasis is not upon Jesus.

What is the gospel..?

1. That Christ died for our sins and through repentance and acceptance
of His sacrifice we will be made worthy of eternal life via grace through
faith.

Or

2. That Christ established a church to dictate policy to a lost world and
whosoever joined that church would become worthy of eternal life
through the means of baptism and the perseverance of good works.

 

Lisa --

Since I am not RCC, I may not have a complete picture of what the RCC considers official, however, I will say that unless the statement from St. Augustine which you quoted, is part of a larger corpus of OFFICIAL WORK (i.e., a declarative canon of a specific council) then it has no authority whatsoever and is not binding upon any Catholic as a believer in Christ.

Now....was that statement part of a canonical councicular statement, or what it just St. Augustine giving his opinion.

Waiting......(music from Jeopardy plays in background)

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed