Last Trump

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by C.S. Murphy, Sep 19, 2002.

  1. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
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    What do you think is the Last trump. What scripture shows it blowing. Is it speaking of the seventh Angel.
    Murph
     
  2. BrianT

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    The last trump is sounded when Christ returns. Matt 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16. It may be the '7th' trump, it may be after it.
     
  3. Dr Steve

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    The last trump of 1Cor 15 cannot be equated with the 7th trumpet of Rev 11. The two are entirely different. the last trump of 1Cor15 is soiunded for salvation, the 7th trumpet of Rev11 is sounded for judgement. The last trump of 1Cor15 is "the trump of God",1Thess4v16,the 7th trumpet of Rev11 is the angels trumpet. Those who try to identify the last trump of 1Cor15 with the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 do so to promote a post tribulational rapture. Such a position cannot be supported from the scriptures.
     
  4. BrianT

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    The last trump in 1 Cor 15 does not say what it is sounded for. Also, a single trumpet sound can serve several purposes, and mean different things to those who hear it: for example, the trump in Matt 24:31 means "your salvation is here!" to the saints, and "oops, you're in trouble now" to the unrighteous.

    I'm not sure if you're referring to the trump = 7th trump, or posttrib in general, but either way these positions *can* (and are, and have been) be supported from scripture, just not in a way you apparently would agree with. [​IMG]

    [ September 21, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  5. Don

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    Respectfully disagree, Doc Steve. I see the trump mentioned in 1 Cor 15 being equated with the trump mentioned in Matthew 24.

    This does not necessarily equate to a post-tribulation rapture, as the book of Revelation appears to indicate that, while during the sounding of the six trumpets previously there's a lot of stuff going on, after the seventh, things get a LOT worse....
     
  6. Dr Steve

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    There seems to be a great deal of confussion here, clearly, if you adopt the view that the "last trump"is the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 then you cannot be holding to a pre trib rapture position.
     
  7. Don

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    So let's discuss it out, since I do hold to a pre-trib belief.
     
  8. Bible-belted

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    Why would one want to hold to that incorrect and a-historical interpretation of the Scriptures??

    [​IMG] :D
     
  9. BrianT

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    Hey Don, I too believe the trump in Matt 24 is the same as the one in 1 Cor 15. But I do not hold to the pretrib viewpoint. Have you noticed that the verse with the trump (v31) is in the section that starts with "Immediately after the tribulation..." (v29)? ;)
     
  10. Dr Steve

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    In reply to Brian T, who equates the last trump of 1Cor 15 &1Thess 4 with the trumpet of Mt24. You should note that in 1Cor 15 &1Thess 4 the coming of Christ for the church is in view, whereas in Mt24 Christ's coming for Israel is the context. The church is no where found in Mt24.
     
  11. BrianT

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    Is that not an argument of silence? Why does it have to be an either/or scenario? Why does lack of specific mention mean they are not there?

    How many "last trumps" do you believe in? ;)
     
  12. Don

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    Dr. Steve, that's an interesting thought.

    Unfortunately, I'm not in a position right now to research that thought train properly. I'll keep watching this thread, and when I get home in a couple of weeks, I'll give that some serious consideration.
     
  13. Dr Steve

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    In reply to the question raised, is that not an argument from silence? No. it is an argument from context. Where are they? Olivet. What were they discussing? The temple and the second coming of Christ.These things alone should point us in the right direction, but there is more. What of the referance to the sabbath day and specific geographical location of these events, the hills of Judah? Do these things not suggest a Jewish and not Christian context?
     
  14. BrianT

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    Sure, I don't disagree with any of this. But my point is that this doesn't preclude the church still being present. Just because the church is not specifically mentioned does not mean it no longer exist - that is the argument from silence.

    The trump in 1 Cor 15:52 is the "last trump". If the church is raptured at the "last" trump, and we see a gathering of the elect at a trump in Matt 24:31 (among many other similarities), simple scripture-interpreting-scripture points strongly at these two passages talking about the same event. If the trump is Matt 24:31 is different from the "last" trump, how can it come after it??? I'm sure you tie other passages about different subjects together, that have less in common than these two passages do, so why break these two passages apart - is it because something in the passages conclusively indicates these are not the same event, or is it because you simply don't want them to be?
     
  15. AVL1984

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    Many on these forums don't hold to a "pre-trib" rapture per se. Some hold to a "mid-trib-pre-wrath" position. The only person whom I've really heard give a reasonable explanation on this is not even a Baptist (though he holds most of the "Baptist" view on the Rapture), and that is Dr. John Hagee.

    I know many Baptist Pastors don't even like to preach on this subject because it is "too hard to explain". I've heard the excuse over and over, even in Bible College at Maranatha in Watertown, Wisconsin. Personally, I do not know the day or the hour, but I know to be ready.

    AJL
     
  16. Dr Steve

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    It seems to me that Brian T believes that the last trump for the church is the last trump of all time. But it need not be if it is only the last trump for the church.Clearly it cannot be, for there will be trumpets sounded during the millennium at the feast of tabernacles which according to the prophet Zechariah will be celebrated again each year in Israel's golden age.

    [ September 27, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  17. BrianT

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    I don't necessarily believe it will be "the last trump for all time", but it's hardly the "last" trumpet if 7 or 8 others immediately follow it. But you're still avoiding the obvious connection to Matt 24:31. If you break down the individual elements, 1 Thess 4:16 has more in common with Matt 24:31 than it does with 1 Cor 15:51-52! Yet you tie 1 Thess 4:16 to 1 Cor 15:51-52 and break all the connections with Matt 24:31, just because you don't see the church specifically mentioned in Matt 24? What about all the things that aren't specifically mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-52?

    [ September 27, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  18. Dr Steve

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    Brian T believes I am missing the connections between the trumpets of Mt24 and 1Thess 4, which he believes have more in common than does the connection between 1Thess4 &1Cor 15. Am I missing the connections? What connections? The passages in 1Thess4 &1Cor15 mention both a resurrection and a rapture, neither one of these events are mentioned in Mt24. Is it therefore not more likely that the passages in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15 be considered equivilent seeing they have common themes?

    [ September 27, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  19. Don

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    As I stated before, I'll be able to address this more adequately when I get home and have my study materials handy--but Dr. Steve, Matthew 24 specifically states that He will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they'll gather the elect from one end of heaven to another (v.31).
     
  20. BrianT

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    Why are you talking about me in the third person? If you don't want to discuss this with me, just say so and I'll shut up. [​IMG]

    The connections I mean are:

    Mentioned in the 1 Cor 15 passage:
    - trump, resurrection, living changed

    Mentioned in the 1 Thess 4 passage:
    - Lord coming, shout, trump, angels, resurrection, gathering, clouds

    Mentioned in the Matt 24 passage:
    - Lord coming, trump, angels, gathering, clouds

    It is more likely that all *3* passages be considered equivalent, seeing they all have common themes - the 1 Thess 4 passage has MORE common themes with Matt 24 than it even has with the 1 Cor 15 passage! The 1 Cor 15 passage has only two things in common with the 1 Thess 4 passage. The Matt 24 passage has 5 things in common with the 1 Thess 4 passage. I'm *agreeing* with your principle, I'm just showing that it creates even a *stronger* connection to Matt 24.

    [ September 27, 2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     

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