Law Keeping or Law Breaking?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Mar 20, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Law Keeping or Law Breaking - which is the path God wants us to follow?

    When He writes His Law on our heart - is it to give us a spirit for law breaking and rebellion or just for complete disregard of His Word in general?


    quote:
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    The list Paul gives in Heb 11 are OT Jews who are NOT rejected - but ARE accepted and their worhsip IS accepted!

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    But Jesus said (pre-Cross)

    And Paul said Post Cross

    It appears that Paul's view of the Law was that it was NOT something to break and not something to rebell against and not something to ignore.

    In fact in Romans 3 he points out that it is what defines sin and rebellion.

    The attitude that says - I don't care - and I don't think God cares about His own Word - His own Law... is not one that you get from Paul.

    Or is it?

    In 1Cor 6 Paul says "BE not deceived" and then provides a list of law-breaking activities that won't be "approved".

    James said in James 2 that we should live and act as those who ARE to be judged by God's Law.

    What did he mean?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    This is not an argument for getting to heaven by works - it is focus on what the right role of obedience is in the life of a Christian who is already born-again.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Quoting Bob,
    "When He writes His Law on our heart - is it to give us a spirit for law breaking and rebellion or just for complete disregard of His Word in general?"

    Bob, you're a Christian, I greet you, "Brother in Christ".
    Now think as the Christian you are would think, not as the Sabbath-keeper you also are, would think, and read your own words again. Would you not agree you as the Christian you are do not with your heart really read "Law", but "Jesus Christ", or, "His Word"?
    I'm sure you won't have ANY objection to read: "When He writes His WORD on our heart - is it to give us a spirit that rejects Him and rebels against Him, or just for complete disregard of Christ as our Standard?

    It's so easy, there's no Law of the Old Testament not amply displayed by Christ our living Model of holiness, devotion and obedience. Not 'morally'-speaking, nor 'institutionally'-speaking. Everything the Christian is obliged to believe and to do and to observe comes form Christ.
    Is there NO difference for you, a Christian, between the Sabbath you believe and keep, and that which the Jew believes and keeps?
    Why won't you kill? As a Christian now! Why won't you kill?
    Why would you keep the Sabbath Day - as a Christian? Won't you keep it FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN? Is it not the most natural thing you would? Is it not most inexplicable you would keep the Sabbath Day for any reason other or besides? Is it not most self-explanatory you keep the Sabbath for being a New testament, Christian, believer?
    Then where did you find your faith of the Sabbath? Did you get it from Christ, absolutely personally, He having closed covenant with you by grace? Did you see Jesus rise from the dead in Sabbath's-time and therefore you celebrate your day of Redemption as you celebrate your redeemer for His salvation obtained for you?
    As in previous posts, I ask you again: Is it not ENOUGH? Is what JESUS did, not enough - not enough for everything you hold dear and with all your heart believe and rely on and hope for and pray for and work for? Is Jesus nor ENOUGH?
    Then why go to mount mount Sinai in Arabia, and not to the Throne of Grace in heaven where jesus is seated at the right hand of God above all mountains and higher than all heavens?
    Paul DOES compare the (old) Law with the bond-woman why deny it? And he DOES present Jesus Christ by analogy of the heavenly Jerusalem in contradistinction with the WHOLE of the old Law. Why deny it if it is Christ you find replaced it?
    "
     
  4. hillclimber

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    I agree with this Bob. But I haven't a clue what Gerhard is trying to say.
     
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    GIVING GLORY TO GOD

    In Revelation 14:6-12 the Three Angel's Messages start with warning people to "Fear God and give glory to Him because the hour of Judgment is come" and ends with identifying God's people in contrast to those who receive the Mark of the Beast... the "saints" are "they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". If we keep the commandments, we glorify God in doing so.

    Unfortunately, so many Christians today miss the boat in this and view their Christian walk as "how can I get to heaven... PERIOD." They have no real concept on the Biblical teaching of glorifying their Creator by how they ACT and what they DO.

    1Jn:3:18: "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

    1Jn:2:29: "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

    1Jn:3:7: "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

    What is the actual purpose for God's Church? God has a reason for calling out a special people to Himself. The Lord desires to separate His people from the customs, habits, and practices of the world, that in life and character they may reveal the principles of His law.

    The ten commandments of God are a transcript of His unselfish character of love. By beholding the goodness and the love of God revealed in His Church, the world is to have a representation of His character. When the law of God is thus exemplified in the life, the world will recognize the obvious superiority of those who love and serve God above every other people.

    And if observed from the heart, the law of God would cause all of humanity to prosper and live in true peace and happiness: "He that keepeth the law, happy is he" Prov:29:18. And now let us go back to the writings of the Old Testament, that we might discover the intended role that the children of Israel were to play in the world. Listen to Moses...

    "Behold," said Moses, "I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon Him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" Deut. 4:5-8.

    But although Israel were called to be a light to the world, they resisted Heaven's grace, abused their privileges, and slighted their opportunities.

    Instead of instructing those in the world around them by example about the God of Abraham, His chosen people fell into the idolatrous practices of the surrounding nations. Rather than the Church leading the world to God, the world led them instead into the ways of the heathen!

    Baal worship was practiced in their borders, even though the prophets of God spoke out against the false gods of their day See 2 Kings chapter 21 and 23.

    Yet as Israel fell into idolatry, the worship of the God of Abraham was not openly renounced. Rather, the nation combined the old rituals with that of the pagan mysteries. And thus, slowly the demarcation between true and false worship became eroded until finally it was to a great extent lost sight of.

    To glorify the God of Heaven, keeping His commandments, thus drawing all of mankind unto Himself was the very purpose for the existence of the Church.

    But unfortunately, Israel had failed to fulfill it's divine mission. Thus the Lord declared of this nation,

    "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jer. 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Isa. 5:3-7.

    Instead of bringing forth the "fruits" of love, which the ten commandments were designed to produce, God's children in old testament times were as an empty vine, devoid of love. Thus they could not bring glory to God, and darkness came out of her instead of light to the world to reflect the holy character of God.

    And now let us go forward to the writings of the New Testament, that we might discover the role that the children of God are to play in today's modern world. Have God's purposes changed? Let's listen to Jesus...

    "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt. 5:13-16.

    As Christians, we are to do good works, and by so doing bring glory to God. We see by the words of Christ that it has always been the purpose of God to manifest through His people the principles of His kingdom, that they may be a light to the world! We are to be the salt of the earth, and a city set on a hill that gives light to the earth's inhabitants.This was the same identical task given to the children of Israel in old testament times. You see, this entire thing is much bigger than just "me and my salvation". We as Christians have been commissioned to represent our Heavenly Father to the whole world! That is what it is all about...

    And now you might say, "But we are under the new covenant now, and thus we no longer are expected to keep God's ten commandment law!" Reader, do you feel this way? ...if so, then you are misunderstanding the old and new covenants!

    The terms of the old covenant were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them"(Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

    But the new covenant was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law.

    "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts . . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34.

    Hebrews 8:
    6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

    The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked.1John:2:6

    This light that we are to give to the world, are the principles of God's law, and they are the principles of love. Many have the mistaken idea that in New Testament times, under the new covenant, we must only have "love" and that the Ten Commandments are merely a "dead letter" that we need no longer concern ourselves with. However, the principles of love are defined within God's Ten Commandment Law. Let's listen to the Jesus...

    "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40

    The reason that Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the last 6 define love to thy neighbor (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal). This same idea is repeated by the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans:

    "...he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

    Romans 13:8,9:
    So you see then that love to God and neighbor is merely a SUMMARY of or is briefly comprehended in the Ten Commandment Law. And not only that but both Jesus and Paul were merely reiterating what had already been declared in old Testament times! Watch this:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

    Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:

    "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7.

    The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17. His Church is still to be as a light to the world. His people are still expected to give the world an example of what it means to live under the principles of His kingdom of love!

    And just in case you get the notion that whether or not we keep this law of love has nothing to do with our salvation, let me clear up that erroneous idea right away:

    I John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    Isn't that clear enough for us to understand? and we already discovered in Romans 13:8-10 that love is merely a summary of the 10 commandments. You do not have eternal life if you don't have love, as defined by keeping God's 10 commandments! If you have been led to believe otherwise, then you have been under a deception, the likes of which needs to be discarded immediately!

    We have established the fact that God desires His people in all ages to represent His character to the world through the keeping of the Law, which reveal the principles of His government of love. Yet even as Israel of old failed in it's mission, and instead of bringing forth fruit unto God, brought forth wild grapes(Isaiah 5:3-7) ...so too have today's modern Church failed in her mission to reveal the Heavenly Father to the world through her good works.

    In old testament times, God's people misunderstood the deep meaning of the ceremonies and rituals they were required to perform. They instead did them expecting to gain the favor of God. Their inward hearts and lives were corrupt. They were unholy hypocrites. God sent His prophets again and again to correct them, but His people did not desire to obey Him out of the motive of love, having a true change of heart. And to substitute external forms of religion for holiness of heart and life is still just as pleasing to the unrenewed nature as it was in the days of these Jewish leaders.

    Jesus clearly said to the Jews,
    Matthew 5:
    18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Notice that Jesus never said that they didn't need to keep the Law. He didn't say that at all! What He said was that not even a jot(the dotting of an "i") or a tittle(the crossing of a "t" would pass away from the law till heaven and earth ceased to exist, and He clearly said that people should not teach that the law was abolished.

    Then to make Himself abundantly clear on this point, the Saviour mentioned a few of the commandments such as: Thou shalt not kill.. and He declared that if you even hate someone in your heart, then you are breaking the commandments! Jesus was explaining that they needed to keep the law inwardly as well as outwardly. Just because they were not outwardly killing someone, didn't mean that made them righteous. If they hated someone it was just as bad as if they had killed them!

    Jesus also said that their righteousness needed to EXCEED that of the Pharisees. If not, then they could NOT enter into heaven. The people who claimed to serve God were to be inwardly holy and not merely outwardly righteous. That was why Jesus said things to the Pharisees like, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." Mt:23:27Outwardly they were all whited and beautiful and kept the mere letter of the Law --to be seen of men, but inwardly they were full of corruption. They continually dishonored God's holy name... the One whom they professed to serve and represent!

    And at the present time, Satan induces many professing Christians, under the pretense of honoring Christ, to claim that the law of God may now be disregarded and transgressed altogether with no fear of any consequences. They have wholly lost sight of the commission that Christ gave them, to be the salt of the earth, a light to the world... that by doing good works they might glorify their Father in Heaven. Matthew 5:13-15.


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    Claudia Thompson
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
     
  6. Claudia_T

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    To add to my last message,

    As far as the Holy Spirit writing God's Law upon our hearts go, unfortunately many Christians today view this to mean that they can virtually make up their own laws and decide what is "love" and what isn't. In doing this, they are taking the same position as do the Spiritualist New Age "we are all gods" group.

    In our day, Satan induces many professing Christians, under the pretense of honoring Christ, to claim that the law of God may now be disregarded and transgressed altogether with no fear of any consequences. They have wholly lost sight of the commission that Christ gave them, to be the salt of the earth, a light to the world... that by doing good works they might glorify their Father in Heaven. Matthew 5:13-15.

    And not only that, but also, -just as God's people in old testament times began to turn to the heathen gods of their day, so too have pagan doctrines and practices been allowed to find their way into the doors of the Christian Church of our day.

    Today this same spiritualistic Mystery Religion and Baal Worship of ancient Babylon comes repackaged in another form that is called the New Age Movement. George Barna, who heads the Barna Group, a polling organization warns:

    "Make no mistake about it: the appeal of the New Age ideas and practices is continuing to grow. Millions of Christians espouse New Age beliefs without realizing what they are doing. Many leaders in the Church are poorly informed and unaware of this subtle threat to Christian orthodoxy." Barna, The Barna Report, 1992-93

    New Age teachings are nothing more than spiritualism. Spiritualism is now changing its form and veils some of its more objectionable features. It cleverly assumes a Christian guise.

    But even in its present form, Spiritualism is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While in the past it denounced Jesus and the Scriptures, it now claims to accept both. However, the important truths of the Bible are explained in such a way as to make them of none effect. And finally, the people are led to reject the Bible as the foundation of their faith. Christ is denied just as much as He was before; yet Satan's deceptions go undetected because they are wrapped up in a new "Christian" package.

    In New Age teaching, the law of God is put out of sight and regarded as a dead letter because supposedly "we ourselves are now the law". The New Age Religion teaches that the law of God has been abolished, and that now all we need to do is "love"... and this love is defined in whatever way each individual deems best and degraded into weak sentimentalism!

    Do we not today hear this same teaching echoed from many modern Christianity pulpits today? Unfortunately, most have no idea that this idea really originated from Satan. "Do as thou will and harm none" is a spiritualistic teaching that now passes as a Christian one.

    How often do we hear "all we need to do now is love one another" from Christian pulpits? Yet the Ten Commandments that God has given us to define true love, are kept cleverly out of site and even declared to be abolished. Yet we have already see that the Apostle Paul has told us that the admonition of Jesus Christ to love God and love your neighbor is "briefly comprehended" or summarized in ALL TEN of the commandments! (see Romans 13:8-10)

    Spiritualist teachers set aside the Law of God. They teach that the sinful, erring nature of man is the only standard of character, and they affect great pity for minds so narrow and weak as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law.

    In ancient times, when Spiritualists contacted the "spirit world" the demon-gods fostered the vilest license for sin. The divine precepts condemning sin and enforcing righteousness were set aside and impurity was not only permitted, but also encouraged. Spiritualism declares that there is no death, no sin, no judgments, no retribution; that men are unfallen gods; that desire is the highest law; and that man is accountable only to himself... does not this teaching betray it's true origin?"

    Yet much of our modern Christianity has adopted this identical vile teaching!

    1Timothy 4:1: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

    And now, let's see what top New Age Personality, David Spangler has to say about the Law of God:

    "The evolution of the race is for man to learn not how to obey the law but how to be the law. There is a vast, vast difference. If you are the law it means that you are at one with the whole. For divine law simply exists. When a person understands this, then he begins to have that attunement, when he is the law, he is not going to act in any way that will disturb or distort the true balance of the true wholeness... The New Age is an age where there is needed that group of people who through attunement can be self-governing, act as the law, as the divine, as the right, as the love."-David Spangler, Relationship and Identity, pg. 89,91,93

    "We can take all the Scriptures and all the teachings, and all the tablets and all the Laws, and all the marshmallows and have a jolly good bonfire and marshmallow roast, because that's all they are worth. Once you are the law, once you are the truth, you do not need it externally represented for you." -David Spangler, Emergence: Rebirth of the Sacred, Findhorn Publications, pg. 144

    In II Thessalonians Chapter 2 we were warned that there would come a "falling away" in the Church and that this "mystery of iniquity (sin)" was already at work.

    Gnosticism appeared in the latter part of the First Century of the Christian Era. Its influence upon New Age thought is undeniable, as New Agers freely admit.The Gnostics tried to interpret Christianity in terms of pagan philosophies, which came from Greek, Egyptian, and Babylonian metaphysics. They took the various teachings from these Occult Mystery Schools, and then attempted to fit the teachings into a new 'Christian' setting, claiming that Gnosticism was the true form of Christianity.

    The Gnostics became a sect that claimed to possess a "Secret Knowledge'" that made them superior to the common Christians, who were not privileged to have the same information that they themselves had. They asserted that Christ had allowed them to inherit the Secret Doctrines or esoteric (hidden) teachings of God's Word. And by combining pagan philosophies with the apostolic doctrines of Christianity, Gnosticism became a very strong influence in the ancient Church. But the true Christians labeled it as 'heresy' and fought vigorously against it!

    Now these Gnostics claimed that they could know God, yet this so-called "knowing" was not backed up by obedience to God. This war by the true Christians against Gnosticism in the early church can be seen by the words of John. Many Christians in his day claimed to "know" God, but John let them know in no uncertain terms that their claim was false, unless it was backed up by obedience to His commandments! 1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    The false doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the Law of God of no effect; that by "believing" we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. The Nicolaitans were a Gnostic sect. To the church of Ephesus JOHN said:

    "I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars; and hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast JUSTIFY thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:1-7

    The Nicolaitans were a Gnostic sect that plagued the church at Ephesus. The founder was Nicolas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism, one of the seven deacons (Acts 6:5). Adherants to this sect taught that deeds of the flesh do not affect the purity of the soul, and thus have no bearing on salvation.

    And so this idea of "all we have to do is believe" and just "know God" had it's origin in the Spiritualistic Gnosticism that had entered into the Early Church! Yet their claim to know God was not backed up by the keeping of His commandments. Thus John repeated several times that if a person really knows God, he will keep His commandments! He even repeated the same thought in Revelation in regard to the Nicolaitans saying, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7

    What went wrong? Christianity today is following in the footsteps of ancient Israel. The Church lost sight of its mission to the world, in reflecting God's attributes through the keeping of His Law. Little by little, at first in stealth and silence, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of the minds of men, "the mystery of iniquity" has carried forward its deceptive work. Almost imperceptibly the customs of heathenism have found their way into the Christian Church. 2Thes:2:7: For the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) doth already work.

    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come... (many will be) lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2Timothy 3:1,4,5. Many Christians today claim to love God and have merely an outward form of godliness, while denying the power of God to transform the life! Ezek:33:31: And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

    We do know that this mystery of iniquity has already been at work in the Church. The vital truths of the Scriptures have been watered down almost one degree at a time. This has been done to such a great extent that it is has become increasingly difficult in our day to distinguish the Christian from the worldly man. Satan, the great adversary of God, has been working in secret to undermine the very pillars of the Christian faith. In the book of Jude chapter 1 verse 3, we are exhorted to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints". The situation however, is that much of Christianity today has no idea what constitutes "that faith that was once delivered to the saints", and that is why there is much confusion in the Church today.

    Today, as then, there are false religious teachers, to whose doctrines many listen with "itching ears". This even has been foretold in the Scriptures: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 3:3,4

    Yet the eyes of God are over His beloved Church, and He sees and knows it all. Our merciful Lord, in these last days of earth's history, gives a final call to mankind to return to the purity of doctrine that once was held in precious esteem by the church.

    In the Book of Revelation, it is brought to our attention that Satan, otherwise known as the Dragon or Serpent would go out to persecute the pure woman (the term "woman" symbolizes the church: Jer:6:2: I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.), and to "make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Rev. 12:17.

    By this we should know that there were at one time a pure church, a pure people, who kept the commandments of God and that God has purposely worked to preserve the truths of His Word, that "faith once delivered to the saints," through a special remnant in these last days. The word "remnant" means "the end remainder of". No matter how hard Satan tried to obliterate the truth, God preserved for Himself a remnant, that would proclaim the original pure doctrines.... "that faith once delivered to the saints" Jude 1:3.

    -------------

    Claudia Thompson
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.christiangraph
     
  7. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Correction: When I quoted from Revelation 2:4 about the Nicolaitans I said
    Revelation 2:4: "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast JUSTIFY thy first love."

    ..but I meant to say

    Revelation 2:4: "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast LEFT thy first love."

    I had been writing in my html editor and used the "find/replace" function and whereever it the code said <P ALIGN="LEFT"> I was replacing the word "LEFT" with the word "JUSTIFY" to justify my margins, so it replaced the word "left" in Revelation 2:4 with the word "justify".

    ..sorry about that [​IMG]

    Claudia Thompson
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Given that Christ, the Apostles, John the baptizer, Samuel, David, Isaiah and all the saints in Heb 11 were "Sabbath keeping Christians" as I am -- I am not sure how to "Think as a Christian that disregards Christ's Holy Day" - but I will give it a shot.

    It is possible that some Christians choose to rebel against the Creator's law even though it is the law of the King of the Universe - while at the same time claiming to "keep God's Word" (So long as God is not actually commanding them to do anything??).

    I have to agree that it is a kind of confused logic they are adopting.

    FEW Christians are opposed to God's Word ENTIRELY. Some are opposed to it if it is from what the NT authors called "Scripture" (i.e. the Old Testament) and some are ALSO opposed to the Word of God if it comes from anything in the NT that is about events/instruction/Christ BEFORE the Cross.

    They accept it as "a kind of history" but not as God's Word to them - something to be obeyed.

    Then there are others who WOULD accept the full text of scripture EXCEPT for certain places where God is actually commanding mankind to obey Him.(you know - "God's Law" and specifically "The commandments of God")

    It is true that Christ perfectly obeyed the Law of God. Gal 4 makes that clear. He was sinless in every respect. The problem is that few Christians are comfortable with the 1John 2 idea of "Walking as Christ walked" since He lived before the cross.

    Wouldn't you agree?

    Christ the Creator (John 1:1-3) perfectly kept His own "Word" as given in the scriptures that the NT authors recognized.

    Christ the Creator is revealed as Christ our Savior in that same book. But Christ did not "start speaking" only after 4000 years of doing nothing. As it turns out - Christ our Creator begins His message to us in Gene 1:1 and emphasizes that point in John 1:1-3

    Wouldn't you agree?

    The faithful Jew (Like John the baptizer and Timothy's family, the saints of Heb 11 ...) would have kept the command to worship God alone, honor parents, remember Christ the Creator's Holy Day, Love their Neighbor, Love God with all their heart ... etc - JUST as the child of God would do it today.

    One Lord, One Gospel, one faith, one baptism ALL grafted in to the SAME vine.

    The idea that the saints of Heb 11 were honoring their parents "via some other gospel" is not found in scripture.

    The idea that they honored Christ the Creator's Holy day "via some other gospel" is not there either.

    For the same reason the saints of Heb 11 would not kill and WOULD obey the command of Christ to "Love your Neighbor as yourself" as He authors it in Lev 19:18. Christ was "our God and Saviour" in the OT according to Isaiah 42 - "I for one" believe Him.

    Christ said - The "Gospel was preached to US (Christians after the cross) JUST as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:1 -- I for one, believe Him.

    For the same reason the saints of Heb 11 did - because Christ the Creator is our Great God and Savior - no bifurcating Christ, no segmenting God, no disecting the Creator of John 1:1-3 from the Savior of John 1:14.

    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

    The idea that the OT saints obeyed God BUT NOT Christ and NOT their SAVIOR and NOT their Messiah, NOT by Faith, NOT out of the new birth born-again experience, NOT as the new creation -- but still in totally-depraved lost unchanged humanity simply "serving God" without respect to the Gospel - is foreign to scripture.

    So in the NT the "DEAD IN CHRIST" are the ONLY ones that NEED to be raised at the end of time because ALL the saints IN ALL AGES (yes even those of Heb 11) died IN CHRIST.

    As would the saints of Heb 11.

    Though I happen to LIVE in the NT period I worship the SAME CREATOR-SAVIOR-GOD as the saints of the OT and I must experience the SAME Born-again experience as Christ declared to exist to the PRE-CROSS saints in John 3.

    AGain - you seem to want to have "one Gospel" in the NT age that is so very different from the OT that our savior is motive and ability and worship is nnot the same at all - (i.e. a different Gospel entirely).

    As did the saints of Heb 11.

    God the Son is older than 2000 years "as it turns out".

    Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ DID something before you seem to allow Him to do and speak - just 2000 years ago.

    As it turns out - HE SPOKE and DID what HE said in Gen 1 JUST as HE SPOKE and DID what He said in John 1.

    The attempt to slice up Christ and dice Him out so that the Christ of Gen 1 is entirely other than the Christ of Mark 1, or the Christ of John 1:1-3 is NOT the Christ of John 1:14 -- is a pointless exercise with no merrit given in scripture to that idea.

    I see your argument is PRO-Christ - it is just that you argument is for a smaller-Christ than John 1 describes.

    I urge you to accept ALL of Christ as the Gospel writer describes Him.

    Please provide the quote Where Paul trashes the entire old Testament (or is it just the books of Moses - the Creation account, the fall of man, the promise of Christ in Gen 1 the flood so fully embraced by Peter in 1Peter 3... )

    Please SHOW that Paul opposes Christ with Christ's OWN WORD in the OT!!

    Please SHOW that Paul claims Christ was "Tricking" the Saints of Heb 11 into "Another Gospel" other than the one we have today.

    In the meantime - Gal 1:6-11 ONE Gospel in all ages.

    Gal 3:7 PREACHED TO ABRAHAM.

    Heb 4:1 PREACHED to US JUST as it was TO THEM ALSO.

    Yes - Christ (God the Son) IS THAT BIG and so also is HIS Gospel!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. eschatologist

    eschatologist
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    Unless someone adheres to ALL the Law they are Law breakers. Do Seventh Day Adventists adhere to ALL the Law? No, unless one attempts to dissect certain parts from the whole and claim, "I follow the whole Law of God." Not even the Jews are following the whole Law of God as he commanded and gave to Moses. I do not see any of them sacrificing bulls or goats as an aroma pleasing to God for atonement of sins! Paul disciplined the Galations for wanting to 'ride the fence of christianity and judaism'. I guess many misunderstand what it is meant when Christ said he was "fulfillment" of the Law, and when Paul states that the "Law was nailed to the cross."

    If you do not believe the argued and debated anecdotal messages in the New Testament writings about Sabbath(Saturday) worship, there is clear evidence from early christian writings outside the Bible that, at least by the end of the 1st century or turn of the 2nd century, Sunday was the day when the early church was worshipping the Lord. Whether you choose to believe these writings is of choice, because there are some flaws when mere mortal men write. Yet I suppose I would be more inclined to believe someone as close to the actual event than someone so far removed like Ellen White.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Paul says that our faith "establishes the Law" in Romans 3:31 and in Heb 8 we are told that the NEW Covenant "writes the Law of God on our hearts".

    In your opening statement you seem to be trying to build a case for "pay no attention at all to the Law of God" - true?

    So that brings us again to the questions in the OP

    Is it your argument that we should rebell against God's Law (in fact His Word) until we are able to be sinless?

    Is that actually a "Bible" argument you are making??

    Is that you argument for "only the sinless would obey God's Law" or is that your way of pretending that we can't read Heb 10 and know that the sacrifices ended with the sacrifice of Christ??

    I see - so it is a claim that we have not read Heb 10 or did not know what it means.

    Well - assume for a minute that we did understand Heb 10 and we "get it".

    What is your argument then? Do you need to find another excuse for ignoring God's Law or is it ok then?

    Given that it is "supposed" to be written on your heart and established by your faith - how do you reconcile your "anti-Word" approach?

    Christ fullilled the Law to Love God (Deut 6:5) and the Law to Love our Neighbor (Lev 19:18) and the Law to worship God alone (Exodus 20)...

    Is it your argument that the moral prescriptive WORD of God is "abolished" once Christ is obedient to it - so that we should NOT have that law written on our hearts - or obey it??

    Where do you find such an idea in the Word of God?

    Paul never said the Word of God - OR the Law of God was nailed to the Cross!

    He said our "CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" was nailed to the cross and that the LAW REMAINS to define what sin is (Rom 3 and Rom 4) and to be ESTABLISHED by our faith!! (Rom 3:31)

    James said that we are to "LIVE AND ACT as those who are to be JUDGED by the Law of God" James 2.

    Paul argues for the 6th commandment in the TEN Commandment LAW of God in Eph 6:1-3 saying it is the FIRST commandment in that set with a promise.

    John said in Rev 12 that the SAINTS are those who "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of GOD" did they "drag them off the cross"???

    D. L Moody clearly argues for the CONTINUED authority of the Ten Commandments on the thread titled here with his name.

    So far you have not made a Bible case for your POV or shown how you address the NT texts in the OP.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    What was D.L. Moody's view of this topic??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Moody goes on in that same sermon to make the case for the Ten Commandments today....

    I am not including his statements on the 4th commandment here since the point of this thread is all the 10 commandments.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. billwald

    billwald
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    Isn't one verse in Exo thru Deut that applies to gentiles in the USofA nor to life in the next world. It is a civil contract for Israel.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Gentiles are supposed to "Love God with all their heart" Deut 6:5 and Gentiles are supposed to "Love their neighbor as themselves" Lev 19:18.

    In Rom 3 Paul says that the Law of God places "THE WHOLE WORLD" under its authority and shows them to be sinners - in clear violation of its commands for them.

    This can not happen if the Law of God does not apply to them.

    It seems likely that Moody is arguing from that POV.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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