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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Oct 11, 2012.
This was the first time I have ever been glad to hear that a business was laying people off.
I am puzzled as to why there is so much concern over the activities of one single church.
Dale....no offense intended but it sounds a bit like you are gloating about this. I'm no big supporter of FBCH or Hyles-Anderson but there are doubtless a lot of genuine brothers and sisters in Christ who (right or wrong),(deceived or not) call that church home who are most definitely hurting at all the shame and destruction that has taken place there. We should pray for them and also pray that God would "take over" and if possible raise up some Godly leadership that would re-direct that ministry onto the right path. I know that may be a tall order...but we have a tall God...amen? Let's NOT be guilty of that most despicable trait of many in fundamental or baptist circles....."shooting our wounded!"
and the answer is....
There seems to always be the need of some to establish a scapegoat. Many times it seems to be to divert the attention from themselves.
Note to Dale...I am NOT accusing you of this! Just so you'll know.....
I think many times we have a hard time keeping everything in perspective. We want to, and we should, be outraged at sin. This is especially true when the situation involves someone who is supposed to be leading and protecting the flock God has entrusted to them. Micah 6:8 tells us the wanting justice is a good and godly thing.
We run into issues though.
1. As has been wisely pointed out, we forget the people hurt by the sin itself and by the fallout. Those people need a godly shepherd now more than ever.
2. The point, and hope, of church discipline is not punishment. The desired outcome is repentance and restoration. We want to encourage righteousness in the life of every person involved. We fail on this point over and over again.
Accountability seems to be a difficult thing for us to do in such a way that edifies the church and, more importantly, glorifies God.
Hopefully things are looking up and we can look forward to this place becoming a church to be proud of instead of the seeming scourge it has been to Christianity.
That would be nice.
Yet there are still people out there pronouncing the past people as great and wonderful. I just heard an evangelist singing the praises of Hyles and that church over the years. Made me sick.
It'll be a great day when I hear an evangelist proclaim that place to be a great church, and have it be the truth. I sure hope it happens!
Because for the last two+ generations, it and its pastors have exercised a good deal of influence over the a large segment of IFBdom and beyond.
Because it's a very, very large church?
What is amazing is to see the differences in their donations from before this even happened! The article says donations were:
2008 - $2.6 million
'Scourge' is a good description. 'Ichabod' is another. While there are many good people there, the leadership has always been involved in cover-ups and manipulations which continue to this day.
These are specific donations made to City Outreach Foundation, which supports a homeless shelter and addiction treatment program, and not general church offerings.
From FBF leader R. S. Beal's biography:
I knew some people who were on staff at New Life in Colorado Springs when Ted Haggard's affair came out and destroyed that church. They all lost their jobs. Haggard went on to complain that his life was so difficult...
Often we ministry leaders fail morally their sin impacts the lives and livelihood of earnest, faithful believers serving in their ministries. This situation is no different. We should pray for these families, encourage these families, and hope for these families. By no wrong doing on their own they are now out on the street. It is always sad.
A lot of people think that when a pastor falls, or fails, that sin is limited to his family and victim/partner. In fact it isn't, it deeply impacts the church and community. I've seen too many vibrant ministries get stopped in their tracks by an immoral act. The people that get harmed as a result suffer in ways we often don't see.
I'll always remember hearing a pastor friend of mine talking about setting moral boundaries for his life and ministry. He took two of us young guys aside at a Christmas party once and pointed to all the assembled staff members and their families. He then quietly reminded us that if he fell he would be responsible for the destruction of all their livelihoods and possibly damage to those families. It was an important reminder that our actions and behaviors live beyond our lifetimes.
Interesting- and a prod to mention that Miller was a good man. The Hyles and son-in-law era have been the troublesome ones, and the current leadership is still up to their eyeballs in dirty tricks.
Ahhh - OK. I thought those numbers were SO weird!
They are stunning. I had to double check because I couldn't see how a church with a $16M loan could exist only taking in $72,000 a year!
There's got to be something rotten going on with those numbers for the Foundation. You can't go from $2M down to $72,000 in just two years. Unless they've solved the addiction problems in South Chicago/NW Indiana (not!)
Unless there were just a couple of majot donors to that particular program that got disgruntled.
As for gloating, no. Happy to see the den of iniquity and heresy going down hill yes. I long for the people in the church to see its error and join solid, gospel preaching churches.
As for being "one little church" that is like saying that Bob Jones is just "one little college" It is more like just one little vatican, much smaller than the one in Rome, but it still has influence much greater than its own walls.
Oh, I should mention, I never was a member there. I vaguely remember visiting some friends of my dad's about 20 or so years ago who did attend for a while.
My dad told me the other day that he had an offer to work with Dave Hyles in the 80s shortly before his first scandal broke out. Needless to say, nothing ever came of that and I was raised without much direct contact with the Hyles wing of fundamentalism.
Be grateful. My cousins both attended HAC and they haven't been right in the mind since.