Lazarus sleeps

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by wopik, Apr 26, 2005.

  1. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jn (NKJV)
    11:11
    These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."


    11:12
    Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well."


    11:13
    However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.


    11:14
    Then Jesus said to them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead.


    11:15
    And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him."
     
  2. TC

    TC
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    10
    And your point is?
     
  3. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    He's still on the BB pushing his "soul sleep" baloney. Like the energizer bunny, he is.
     
  4. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
  5. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gershom,

    Just what don't you get about JESUS' statement?

    Jesus: "Our friend Lazarus sleeps...."

    Jesus: "Jesus spoke of his death"

    Jesus said to them PLAINLY, "Lazarus is dead..."


    Gershom, which words of JESUS don't you get?
     
  6. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can all post scripture, but if we don't make a comment about it no one reading it will know why we posted.
    Unless we posted simply to see our names as a thread starter.
    Kind of like when one talks to hear themself speak, I should think.
     
  7. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    Its a bit cryptic for me.

    Unless the notes are distinguishable nobody will know what your playing [​IMG]

    David
     
  8. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    44,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    No comment? No question?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. APuritanMindset

    APuritanMindset
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2004
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sleep is a biblical metaphore for being dead. This passage doesn't back soul sleep at all anyway because Jesus wasn't talking about Lazarus' soul. He was talking about the physical Lazarus.
     
  10. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    O, never mind.
     
  11. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    He's been rebuked time and again with Scripture.
     
  12. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am going to turn the tide on your statement here. Let's examine Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31). Jesus said that the "rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away" (vs22-23). That rich man's body died (ie..fell asleep) yet he was awake in hades looking in Abraham's bosom. He could see, he had active memories, and desires. His soul was very much awake (though his body lie sleeping in a grave). Let's look at Lazarus. Jesus said that, "the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom" (vs22). Again this man's body died (ie...asleep) but the man was conscience and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Also let's note Abraham here. He is certainly not asleep. While his body long, long, long ago (before this account) fell alseep, his soul was awake and active.

    No place in Luke 16 do we see soul sleep. Instead we see Jesus saying:

    Of the rich man, "rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away"

    Of the poor man, "the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom"

    Now, I ask you your own question: which words of JESUS don't you get?

    Where in that text is it stated that these men's souls are sleeping? I can answer that for you, it says nothing of the sort. And what it does say is a 100% refutation to the false doctrine of soul sleep.

    Now if you claim Luke 16:19-31 is a parable you have done violence to the Word of God. How?

    1. Neither Jesus, nor Luke, say it is a parable.
    2. It is not worded as a parable, rather it is worded as an actual fact (parables do not give the characters names).
    3. If you say it is a parable, and you hold to soul sleep, then you have just stripped the parable of any meaning. Thus you make the Word of God void.

    Now let's move on.

    Paul states that he wants "to depart and be with Christ" (Phil 1:21-24). In the context it is clear he is talking about the physical death of his body. Notice that verse 21 (to die is gain) and the contrast between leaving the flesh and staying in the flesh. Paul did not believe in soul sleep (also see 2Tim 4:6). In 1Thessalonians Paul talks about Christ bringing "with Him" those who are "asleep" when He returns (4:13-18). Now if their body and soul is asleep in the ground, how can He bring them "with Him"? The fact is their body is asleep in the ground but their souls are with Jesus. Thus they are absent from the body and present with the Lord" (2Cor 5:8). This can also be seen in Revelation 6:9-11 where the "souls" of those who had been killed are crying out for God's justice. If soul sleep were true then these verses could not be in the Scriptures. These verses show that these souls are awake, conscience, and are very active.

    I could go on, and on.

    In John 11 Jesus is refering to the body and not the soul of the man. How do I know? The witness of all of Scripture. The Lord Jesus Himself promised (directly and indirectly) that when we die (as believers) we go into His presence (Lk 16:22, 23:43). To the unbeliever he promised torment right after death (not just in the future). To teach soul sleep is to deny the Words of Holy Scripture.

    You have taken one (or a few) isolated verse(s), a verse that gives no explanation of what it means by "sleep" other than death, and you have ignored other Scriptures. You can't ignore Scriptures without falling for false doctrine. When we examine all of Holy Scripture we see that the term "sleep", when it refers to death, is talking about the body and not the soul or spirit of the man/woman.

    So again, I refer you back to your own question. In considering the words of Jesus, Paul, John (and others) Just what don't you get about their statements?

    Soul sleep is one of the most false, wicked, unBiblical doctrines ever to come forth. It ranks right up their with purgatory, works salvation, and the health, wealth, prosperity stuff. I have seen the damage these false teachings do. They are unBiblical and therefore they harm. I pity any person who sits in a church where any of these horrible false doctrines are taught.

    I am sorry if this comes off as being rude. It is not meant that way. It is, however, meant to be a harsh answer to false teaching.

    Soul sleep, in short, sickens me.

    It is 100% unBiblical.

    In Christ,
    Martin.
     
  13. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen Martin! [​IMG]

    To be absent from the body is to tbe present with the Lord. [​IMG]
     
  14. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Me, too, Mart!!

    Except I get a lot of "noddin'" heads & "dozin' off" from the listeners on Sundays ESPECIALLY between 11:40am and 12:20pm!!!!!!!
     
  15. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's think some more about this vile doctrine of soul sleep. I want to write more on this because I was in a hurry the other day and did not go into enough detail.

    First let's start by looking at John 11. This is the passage that wopik was so confident supported their statement. The point wopik made was that since Jesus used the term "sleep" here, it must mean that Lazarus was in a unconscious state (both physically and spiritually). However such a conclusion is not justified based on Jesus' statement(s). Why not?

    First it must be noted that Jesus is clearly using figurative language when He uses the term "asleep" (vs11). The disciples mistakingly thought that Jesus was saying that Lazarus was only sleeping and would wake up (vs12). Jesus quickly corrected them by saying that, "Lazarus is dead" (vs14). Jesus was using the term "asleep" in a non-literal fashion (vs14). Therefore the term "asleep" is not meant to be understood in a wooden-literal fashion (as the disciples did).

    Second Jesus says nothing about the state of the soul of Lazarus. He does not go into any detail on that. Therefore to try to use John 11 as a proof text for soul sleep is weak.

    Now the question must be asked: Did Jesus ever say anything about the so-called intermediate state of the saved and lost?

    The answer to that question is yes. In Luke 16 we read the account of two men who died and what happened to them (and is still happening to them) in the intermediate state (Btw this is not a parable. See my earlier reply for that information). By giving such descriptions Jesus directly gave evidence for an intermediate state. If the body, soul, and spirit slept in an unconscious state until the resurrection then the account Jesus gives in Luke 16 would be inaccurate. However since Jesus never gave out inaccurate information we can trust the words of our Lord. Words that the Holy Spirit had Luke record.

    What were the conditions of these men?

    Let's notice that the rich man who died, and whose body had been buried, was very much conscious in torment. Notice that he "lifed up his eyes" (vs23) implying that he could see (clearly this also shows that the soul takes on physical characteristics after the death of the body, or maybe there is a temporal body for the intermediate state). If soul sleep were true this man certainly would not be able to see. Notice also that he could speak (vs24), feel pain (vs24), understand (vs25), desire (vs27),and that he had an active memory (vs27-28). None of this could be true if he, a wicked lost man in torment, was in a state of soul sleep.

    Lazarus also died. However we see something very interesting here. Lazarus dies yet he is "carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom" (vs22). The man is dead. If we were there on the street we would see his dead body lying there. Yet the Bible says that the man, Lazarus himself, was carried away by the angels. Since this clearly could not / does not refer to the physical body it must be the man's soul/spirit. Clearly he was not in a state of "soul sleep". Abraham says that, while in Abraham's bosom, Lazarus was "being comforted" (vs25). Abraham contrasts the experiences of the two. While the rich man was in a state of conscious torment, Lazarus was in a state of conscious comfort (what Jesus refered to as Paradise, Lk 23:43).

    Also let's notice Abraham. Abraham had passed away many years before the life of Christ (Gen 25:8). Yet, here in Luke 16, Jesus describes Abraham as being very active. Abraham listens (vs24-25), talks (vs25-26,29,31), reasons (vs31). These are all the activities of a man who is not asleep.

    So, from this passage alone, we can easily conclude that the doctrine of soul sleep is false. However I don't want to stop there.

    The Apostle Paul wrote most of the New Testament, therefore let's see what he had to say about this intermediate state.

    In Philippians 1:21-24 Paul reveals that he is suffering from a problem. On one hand he longs to depart and be with Christ, but on the other hand he wants to continue his earthly ministry. Notice that Paul had a desire to "depart and be with Christ" (vs23). This "departing" Paul said was "very much better" than remaining on in the flesh (vs23). However he realized that, for a time, remaining in the flesh was what he needed to do (vs24). Since Paul is contrasting departing and being with Christ and remaining in the flesh it is clear he is talking about death (2Tim 4:6). Paul did not believe that, at death, his body, soul, and spirit would lie in an unconscious state until the resurrection (ie..soul sleep). No, rather Paul believed that when He died He would leave the flesh to be with Christ. In another passage Paul put it this way: "to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (2Cor 5:8). Paul saw the death of the believer as an event in which the person is transfered out of their physical body and into the presence of the Lord Himself (Paradise, Lk 23:43). Paul did not teach soul sleep.

    However Paul did, like Jesus, use the term "sleep" to refer to death. In 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul states that some of the believers had "fallen asleep" (vs14). This is sometimes used to promote soul sleep. However this very same verse refutes soul sleep. How? Notice what the whole verse says:

    "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" vs14

    These believers have fallen asleep, they have died, yet when Jesus returns for His church (vss15-18) He will bring them with Him. That means that while their bodies are asleep in the ground, their spirits/souls are with Christ. They are in paradise and, as seen above, they are not in an unconscious state (they are not in soul sleep). So it seems clear that the term "asleep" refers to the physical body and not the soul/spirit of the person. The body does "fall asleep" and will be awakened on the day of resurrection (Jn 5:25-29). At that time the spirit/soul, which has been in a conscious state with Christ in paradise or in torment, will be re-united with the body forever (2Cor 5:1-10, Eph 1:13-14). There is no soul sleep.

    Several other good examples that refute soul sleep are given in my other (first) reply in this same thread. There I mention the souls in Revelation 6 which are certainly not asleep.

    Soul sleep is heresy. It destroys part of the hope of the believer. The Bible says that the moment our physical bodies die, we are in paradise with Christ (or if we are lost we are in torment). Anybody who denies this is denying Scripture. Period.

    In Christ,
    Martin.
     
  16. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, Martin. And let's not ignore this:

    Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    I guess Moses and Elijah forgot that they were supposed to be "sleeping."
     
  17. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    very good point Gershom, I had forgotten that one.

    Martin.
     
  18. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    At least Moses, anyway. [​IMG]
     
  19. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
  20. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0

Share This Page

Loading...