Learning from David and Michal

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ingo Breuer, May 2, 2009.

  1. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a question about the relationship between David and Michael in the Bible. What caused Michal to "change her mind" about David. At first she loved David (1. Sam. 18:20, 28) probably out of admiration because David's actions in killing DGoliath and his wise behavior caught her attention. Michal saved David's life from the persecutions of Saul (1. Sam 19). She actually lied to save a life which happens several times in the Bible. Later on Saul gives Michal to someone else but David reclaims her as his wife. But not much later in 2. Sam 6 we read that Michal despised David when he publicly worshipped the Lord. What happened in this relationship that at first Michal loved David but later she despised him? I ask this because I have observed a Christian marriage fall apart. At first the wife loved her husband but then years later despised him, refused to go to church with him and got deeper into worldliness and then divorced. Similar to David and Michal, there were also tensions between the 2 families. The wife's family went to a different kind of Bapist church and tried to get the husband to come. When he didn't they got bitter against him. It is always sad when Christians lose focus and start puttting church membership ahead of salvation and usually the husband is the head of the home and makes the decisions on family worship. Not the in-laws. In 2. Sam 21 it gets even worse when David takes the 5 sons of Adriel and has them hung by the Gibeonites. These 5 sons were brought up by or possibly even born to Michal, David's wife, who was barren at one time. Do you think that the battle between the house of David and Saul took a toll on the relationship between David and Michal? Or do you see something else in the scriptures that got David and Michal apart?
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    David's dancing apparently caused bitterness in Michal, since she thought he embarrassed himself before others. I am sure having many wives to compete with didn't help either.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    1. First and foremost, Michal loved him very much. Nowhere does the Bible say that David loved her back.

    2. She risked her own life in saving David's life. She took a terrible and personal risk in sneaking him away to safety. She lied and defied her father to protect the man that she loved. Saul would have been within his rights to have her killed. He humiliated her instead by giving her to another man.

    3. David runs away to safety and by the time that he sees Michal again, he has married at least two other wives, including Abigail.

    So......

    The men in her life have no regard for her. Her father humiliates her and her husband only asks for her back out of defiance to Saul.

    She has fallen in love and was willing to lay down her life for her husband.

    And when she sees him again, there are other women in HER bed with HER husband. She's hurt, defeated, humiliated, and angry. Rightfully so. Justifiably so.

    But she makes the wrong decision. She feels despised by David, so she just despises him right back - out of pain. And he rebukes harshly her for it. And she is punished by never having the privilege of bearing children. Whether that means she was made barren by God or that David never slept with her again because another man had her, I don't know.

    Some people in this life have great pain and sufferings to bear. She was one of them.

    But we are to rise above them and find our peace and joy from God, if from no one else.

    She should have emulated Leah. Leah, an unattractive woman, who was hated by her husband Jacob. The Bible says twice that he hated her.

    Leah tried to appease him by bearing children. He never even named any of them. She did. Highly unusual. At the birth of her fourth child, she took her focus off of her pain of living with a husband who hated her and focused on the God who loved her.

    This is what Michal should have done. But she didn't.
     
    #3 Scarlett O., May 2, 2009
    Last edited: May 2, 2009
  4. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    If you're going to mention competing with other wives, then you've got to mention that during this same time he is apparently caught up in an apparent gay relationship with Jonathan, and specifically said that his love was better than a woman's.

    Also in regards to his dancing, he wasn't just dancing. Keep in mind that he was nearly naked, and danced like that in front of everybody. She didn't criticize the dancing, she criticized him for uncovering himself in front of everybody including the maids and being vain about it. His response was but "it was before the Lord".
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    What garbage! Nowhere does it say that David was involved in a gay relationship! Women were property in those days, and the love from Jonathan as Saul's son was a special brotherly bond (Saul even refers to David as his son)...a unique closeness that one would give their lives for the other. Nowhere in the OT would a man give their life for a woman, as they held an inferior place in society.

    He also wasn't nearly naked...Michal accused him of this...big difference, most likely falsely out of bitterness and jealousy. The judgment of God closing her womb is evidence of this.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that David was involved in a homosexual relationship.
     
  7. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    Sorry. You are dead wrong.

    1 Samuel 18:1 says that the love that Jonathan had for David was from his "spirit"....that his "soul" became knit with David's. This was a deep and abiding friendship that was Godly and pure and based on loyalty to each other in spirit, not flesh.

    2 Samuel 1:26 says that when Jonathan died, David mourned for him and extolled his love as a brother, not a lover.

    The Bible is very clear on that.
     
  8. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe you are reading way too much into David's relationship with Jonathan. You need to remember that David's society was very patriarchal. Many men, like David, had more than one wife. Therefore, I don't believe they looked at marriage in the way that we do today. David had a close love and friendship with Jonathan, but no where in Scripture does it say anything about an inappropriate relationship. To imply that David had a sexual relationship with another man is going beyond anything Scripture reveals.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we need to be careful and not read too much into scripture, and especially not read it in terms of modern marriages and relationships.

    The point of the Bible saying Michal despised David when he danced before the Lord is that she was embarrassed - rather than sharing the joy David had in the return of the ark, she had a personal, bitter reaction.

    Remember, David was beloved by God and was the king who foreshadowed the Messiah and was the ancestor of the Messiah. To despise one beloved or chosen by the Lord is often spoken of in the Bible in very negative terms.

    The point of this episode is the joy in the return of the ark - David rejoiced but Michal didn't - she chose embarrassment over joy in the Lord. Beyond that, it's all speculation.
     
  10. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    This view is part of the propaganda of the homosexual community about David. They are Bible revisionists. They do not interpret the Bible correctly at all but are attempting to reinterpret it so that their lifestyle is validated.
     
  11. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    It speaks of the deep friendship that David had with Johnathan. There are some things that men can share together that cannot be shared with a woman and it has nothing to do with sex.
     
  12. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    1 Samuel 18:1 - Their souls were knit together.

    1 Samuel 18:3 - they loved each other so much they made a covenant together.

    1 Samuel 18:4 - David pretty much stripped naked and gave all his clothes he was wearing to Jonathan, including his robe, garments, and girdle.

    1 Samuel 19:2 - Jonathan "delighted much in David".

    1 Samuel 20:30 - Saul apparently gets mad at their relationship -
    "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? "

    1 Samuel 20:41 - They kissed each other.

    2 Samuel 1:26 - "very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women"




    ... sounds pretty gay to me. :thumbs:
     
  13. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    2 Samuel 6:14 says that he had on an ephod, and never mentions anything else. An ephod is pretty much just an ornamental breastplate held in place by shoulder straps. That's all it is. Considering this plus the fact that Michael said he was exposing himself, you don't really have any grounds to claim that he wasn't nearly naked, plus David never denies this allegation. Michael saw him with her own eyes... she wasn't making stuff up or hearing rumors, she saw him, and as soon as she did, this is when she despised him. It has nothing to do with jealousy, he wasn't with another woman or anything, she just saw him dancing, and if he was simply dancing for the Lord and nothing else, she really had nothing to be jealous of in terms of other wives or whatever. Apparently he was going well beyond that though because as soon as she saw him do whatever he was doing, she dispised him.
     
    #13 corndogggy, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you have a corrupt and perverted mind. There is nothing gay about it. This was a man after God's own heart.
     
  15. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    David had tons of wives on his own, got all of Saul's wives, had several more concubines, and still committed adultery outside of these relationships. In Psalms 38:7, apparently he even has an STD. His perversion was legendary. Yet you say I'm the pervert? If we were talking about somebody like Paul I'd agree with you, but we're talking about David here.

    Since I'm typing though, I should ask... I'm sure you have some real close buddies, so tell me... you ever kissed them? You ever told them their love was better than any woman's? Ever strip naked and give them your clothes? Ever make a covenant with them because of your love? Ever admit that you delight in them? Ever consider your souls to be knit together?
     
    #15 corndogggy, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  16. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Corndoggy, you have been duped by the homosexual agenda. This is the propaganda that they use to twist and pervert the scripture to promote their lifestyle as being legitimate.
     
  17. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I don't see how this is proof of it being legit, only that it happened. There's plenty of bad stuff in the old testament that was described in detail but that don't make it legit, good, acceptable, or anything else. With this argument you should also say that his adultery with Bathsheba was legit and acceptable.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    So let me get this straight: Because David sinned that somehow makes a statement about you?

    You get this straight: You have a perverted and corrupted mind if you think that David was a homosexual based on those passages.

    It's not our culture. I have embraced them, yes. The NT tells us to greet the brothers with a kiss of love or a holy kiss. So in the ancient culture (if you took time to understand it), and in some cultures today in the middle east and Europe, kisses are common ways of greeting.

    The point there is that there is a relationship between men that women can't give. It's shared manhood, just like there is between women.

    That was another ANE custom that we don't practice today.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    There's not many friends I have like that, but there are maybe one or two.

    Sounds to me like you have no grasp on true friendship or biblical relationships, and no grasp on the Bible in the culture.
     
  19. corndogggy

    corndogggy
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Or maybe I'm just a pervert because I don't "delight" in my male friends and strip naked for them after we make a covenant that knits our souls together then tell them their love is better than any woman's. Hopefully I never will. How awful of me. I would in fact be curious to see how many guys here would though.

    It is curious though, the only two situations that I'm aware of that the Bible says that two become one is with marriage, and sex with a harlot. With that in mind, how can you read "their souls were knit together" and not think that it's a relationship like this?

    If this were common with biblical relationships, show me any other place in the Bible where these things were done, especially with mentioning "their souls were knit together". I bet you can't. Yes I understand the kissing part as a way of greeting or saying goodbye, but not the rest. Seriously, just show me another place that shows this that would prove that this was common. You act like it's real common in biblical relationships, but I bet you can't show me any other place where two men's souls were knit together. Mentioning it one time doesn't make it normal and common.
     
    #19 corndogggy, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not nearly enough. You are a pervert because you take a straightforward description of mature male friendship and turn it into homosexuality.

    Furthermore, as was already pointed out, no one stripped naked. You need to study the Bible.

    Because the "two becoming one flesh" is not the same as their souls being knit together.

    Neither does it make it homosexual. How is homosexual described as a man after God's own heart?

    Why does it have to be mentioned more than once? Why does it have to be common? Only a perverted mind could come up with what you came up with.
     

Share This Page

Loading...