Least in the Kingdom greater than John. Why?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John."

    I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (Luke 7:28).

    John the Baptist came preaching the Kingdom of God to be at hand.

    Jesus says John was the greatest among those born of a woman. This is just another way of saying John is the greatest man born of the flesh. So here Jesus is saying that John was the greatest of all men up to that point in time. But he also says that the least in the Kingdom is greater than John.

    So how is the least born of the Spirit into the Kingdom greater than the greatest "born of a woman"?

    Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.'

    I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (Luke 7:28).

    He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren

    Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead

    But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you

    [ February 23, 2005, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Ben Elohim ]
     
  2. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    This should give you some insight as to when people first began to be born again of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God that John was first announcing at that time.
     
  3. Ben Elohim

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    Kinda completely rules out regenerate OT saints doesn't it?
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    You'd better rethink regeneration Ben Elohim.
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Ben.
    I think you should take the advice given by Wes for the least of those saved was regenerated in the womb! :cool:

    johnp.
     
  6. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Hello Ben.
    I think you should take the advice given by Wes for the least of those saved was regenerated in the womb! :cool:

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I see that you surmise that someone familiar with the Bible would overlook such things. I do think you know better. Again, you imagine preconceived notions into the text at your pleasure.

    Of course, your response puts you in your own predicament. Since you wish to claim that John was born again into the Kingdom, how then is the least in the Kingdom going to be greater than John the greatest born of a woman? So now you will need to explain how the least in the Kingdom is greater than John.

    And you will also need to ignore that the new birth is being raised up into the resurrection life of Christ, the firstborn of the dead. Of course, that had not happened yet in John's lifetime...
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Ben having fun.

    I do? I think personally that if I knew someone was familiar with the scriptures then they would be familiar with the same scriptures that I am familiar with.
    Usually I quote from scripture when I see a person commenting in error. I use the scripture to show them where I think their idea conflicts with scripture in expectation that they will respond with some answer other than, "I knew that!" :cool:
    "Preconceived" You will like this one I think! :cool: Is this 'preconceived' notion of mine really 'postconceived'? I'm not sure how you mean the word because you have a problem with 'pre' do you not? :cool:
    You know me better than I know myself I have that feeling. Would you tell me what preconceived notions could formulate in this head of mine that could make me think that Saint John of the Least Ofthem was not regenerated?
    Shall we indulge ourselves a little? Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. The baby John is conscious and aware of the outside world. When He hears the mother of Jesus calling out a greeting he leaped for joy because he knew Jesus had arrived. He had started witnessing! That God you know! Slave Master He is. No sooner have we arrived at work it's get yer backs into it without even a cup of tea to start the day, or in this case, a cup of amniotic fluid. :cool:
    More important than that. He had started to give comfort and edification, a building up of those God chose before the creation of the world. The greatest of our works. Look what it does to Mary, lost in wonder, love and awe! "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior..." John knew about nothing but he knew his God. And so he should have done seeing like he was His Herald! :cool:
    Mary recognised God at work as well and received the 'leap for joy' as her Father telling her that it was all true! The blessed woman had a stigma attached to her name! :cool: Good Calvinists see God at work all the time. On second thoughts I think she may have been closer to Augustinism.
    I need to explain nothing or am I on the wrong thread? No! It's the wrong thread. I need to explain how the least in the Kingdom is greater than John. Why? :cool:
    ...raised up into the resurrection life of Christ... What is that exactly? Is this a power you speak of? I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection... Php 3:10. The power of His resurrection is portrayed quite clearly in the unborn John of the Least Ofthem is it not? Respond to the verse why don't you? Why respond with more questions and no answers. Making smoke?
    What is it to be then? Did Lizzy have dyspepsia and imagine a thing? Silly women getting carried away or what?

    johnp.
     
  8. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Well well, I see your approach is to completely ignore why Jesus would say the least in the Kingdom is greater than John and appeal to an interpretation colored by the desires of your imagination.

    I think that both you and I know why the least in the Kingdom is greater than John. The least in the Kingdom is someone who was born again of the Spririt into the Kingdom but John, although he was the greatest born of a woman, was not born into the Kingdom. Kinda plain but hey if you want to pretend John was born again in spite of the obvious, and not only so, born again before Jesus the FIRSTborn was born out of the dead and completely ignore common sense here in order to appeal to your creedal traditions that is completely your perogative.

    You may also wish to think about the fact that John announced the Kingdom for the first time. You may also wish to think about the fact that the Kingdom is something we are born again into. That being the case, one wonders how it is that you can contrive a plausible case for OT saints being born into the Kingdom before John even came preaching the Kingdom. Funny that some born again OT saints didn't say to John, "So what? This is nothing new. People have been born again into this Kingdom since Abraham."

    I find it very telling that you will completely refuse to try and explain why the least in the Kingdom is greater than John, which BTW, is the point of this thread.
     
  9. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Ben.
    This is going to be fun as well! :cool:
    Firstborn does not mean firstborn though it is often attributed to the firstborn. It is in fact a title rather than a description! I thought you were versed in matters linguistical, speaking as you do the Hebrew and the Greek. You surprise me in failing at such a point as this!
    It means preeminent . I will give you a hand with this very difficult concept of the 'pre'. Preeminent simply means before all others, most important. Heir. It means the first son or it means the first child if the first child is a girl. But a firstborn girl is only firstborn while her siblings do not arrive as boys! If they do she is no longer firstborn. It is a title. What you say? I knew that?
    So you are in complete and total disarray and your doctrine crashes to the flaws. :cool: That's one for the Jehovah's witnesses. I had a lot to do with them.
    Let's see where the common sense is here 'a'?

    I think that is an exellent question and one that I've wanted to go into. I shall do so now that you are deflated! I'll just post this off to you because I think you will find it, 1) Interesting, or, 2) Something to blank.

    johnp.
     
  10. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    The firstborn of a family is pre-eminient because they are... well they are the first one born. You will find this in your Bible if you actually look. You are merely creating a false dichotomy here and without any evidence I might add.

    So now, are you desiring to claim that people were raised up into the heavenlies into the body of Christ before he was incarnated into a body and died and rose again himself? Well, yes you are amazingly enough.

    And as it is, you are still avoiding the question at hand. Why is the least in the Kingdom greater than John?

    And, will you also insist that people were born again into the Kingdom of God before John came along and announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God?
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    It's called attrition, that is why it's very telling. I'm glad you told me it is working. :cool: You are not the only one like you! :cool:
    The least in the Kingdom is greater than John.
    Another Jehovah's witness one if I am not mistaken.
    JN 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
    Greater does not mean better. More extensive in range and scope.
    Jesus was on earth the Father was in Heaven this makes the Father greater but He is not better than Jesus. He is better than us though. The abilities we have are far in excess of most of the OT regenerates. They match Elijah's. The common folk did not have the power of the Holy Spirit in the way we do now. That was for the Prophets, David and Isaiah and Moses and Enoch. We are like them if we could but take a hold of it!
    Now I will say that I am greater than you. I am not better just greater. I have the fellowship of Almighty God and we are very good friends. I speak on His behalf. As David spoke for Him, as Elijah spoke for Him so do I. His death for me proves I speak for Him. He is my friend.
    EZE 36:24 " `For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

    I will be happy to show you many passages that show regenerate OT Christians. Job was regenerate and the Spirit dwelt in Him and that's unmistakable except to a blind man. JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
    Forgiveness of sins and the resurrection before Moses?

    That means then that John did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling as we do? If not then that does not mean that he was unregenerate. The disciples were the same until Pentecost. A fulness came at Petecost but the disciples were clean anyway. Forgiveness of sins had been given them and some measure of the Holy Spirit too. "You are the Christ!" Peter said.

    How's that for a starter?

    johnp.
     
  12. Ben Elohim

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    Well a little discourse on "greater vs better" does not explain why the least in the Kingdom is greater than John does it? Well you may be keenly interested in what the word "greater" does NOT mean, the question was to explain what it DOES mean for the least in the Kingdom to be greater than John, the greatest born of a woman.

    Secondly, will you also insist that OT people who were sacrificing animals for their sins, were born again into the Kingdom of God before John came along and announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God?
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    I don't know what conception you have over the phrase, God is Sovereign but to say that any ground of the Kingdom of God has been taken by God's enemies you are very much mistaken. God lost no ground in this rebellion. He is waiting for the last of His sheep to come home wagging their tails behind them and then He will show you where His Kingdom rules mate. :cool:
    Jesus is the Kingdom of God for, "JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS is written on Him somewhere.
    And where the King is there is His Kingdom.
    Where had it been then? Sounds like a train pulling in. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    Ex 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

    Israel was not the firstborn nation was it? Just yes or no. You lose.
    I told you I knew the Jw stuff. I got very close to them.

    johnp.
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    You may know what all that means but I don't. But I will assume. I will not say presume! :cool:
    Well, yes you are amazingly enough. It's a start, at least I know what I was saying! HaHa! If I was saying what you are saying I'm saying then I should be able to understand what I was saying, I think I don't?
    So now, are you desiring to claim... I am not desiring to claim anything that I've already posted because my desire in that is spent surely.
    ...that people were raised up into the heavenlies... Too poetic for me to deal with. But Enoch and Elijah did a runner in the flesh.
    ...into the body of Christ before he was incarnated into a body and died and rose again himself? What is this? The Body of Christ are the Christians. Are you a young Christian? It was a good question. The confusion here is great.
    I told you. John was not indwelt in the way we are by the Holy Spirit.
    John could perform no miracles. He did no healing. That in itself is enough. Those after Pentecost could raise the dead. They were greater than John. The least of us have more than John and the whole of Israel flocked to Him.

    johnp.
     
  16. Ben Elohim

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    johnp, these little apologetic games you get out of books are hold hat for this guy. Most of the stuff in these books are contrived dishonesties so please be careful. Now to help you understand how it is that Israel is God's firstborn son you will need to read the following:

    to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants. (Romans 9)

    Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his seed. It does not say, "And to seeds," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your seed," which is CHRIST. (Galatians 3:16).

    That would be God's firsborn son.

    Now, you bring up the Sovereignty of God. What do you think this must mean? Do you think it is a God who has to make sure that eerything that happens made it happen or things would be out of his realm of control? That would be a God of control and control is expressed with an eye to fear that things might not go the way one wants. But our God is a God of power and this God can work out anything to the good no matter how bad we all run amuck. Do you really think you are not in control or have no power when you allow your little children at home to make mistakes? Think about that carefully. And is God not Sovereign because he can't stop you from sinning? Oh, you say he allows you to sin? Well then, what is your problem with me saying a Sovereign God of power allows people to chose to sin and do whatever they like? By your errant definition of Sovereignty I can likewise charge that your God is not Sovereign because he is unable to stop you from sinning when we all know that you do sin. Is God not in control of things?

    And finally, you still have not answered this question:

    Will you insist that OT people who were sacrificing animals for their sins, were born again into the Kingdom of God before John came along and announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God?
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi JohnP;
    He's lost nothing is this what your saying?

    He's only lost a third of all the angels and at least two thirds ("probably more")of all humanity. I'd say God has some deep losses in this battle Not only this he has lost His rule over the earth of which Satan is scrambling to hold on to as we speake.
    We have to face reality here JohnP consider switching from tea to coffee. ;)
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
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    That is not the coffee speaking is it ILUVLIGHT?

    Not only this he has lost His rule over the earth of which Satan is scrambling to hold on to as we speake.
    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
    How do you get two thirds of all humanity man? Are you limiting all all of a sudden?
    You forget all too soon that He is a consuming fire. His wrath will fall on those that show contempt of His Sovereignty and they will be crushed under His weight.
    He lost nothing but revealed His glory which you despise.
    The damned are for the revealing of the glory of God. Nothing is loss to that.

    johnp.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi JohnP;
    Poor JohnP; You just don't understand. All is not lost if it were we'd all be in Hell. You may include your self if you wish but please don't include me. I placed my trust in Christ. You on the other hand have no assurance because you can't even prove you're elected.
    Why do you accuse me of your own short comings?
    Is it because you're unable to form a coherent reply about the subject at hand.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike :D
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    What books would they be? So then you have heard it all before? Why complain that you hear it again? Does it come as a surprise that you are confronted on a discussion board or something?
    I'm sorry Ben but I could have sworn that I gave you the impression that I knew what firstborn means. Oooooh! You got to Romans nine before me! Great stuff! (Little things 'a'?)
    But the condition of the scriptures is shocking. Mish-mashing away. Chapter and verse vs Smoke.
    Answer my question, Ex 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

    Was Israel the first nation? Yes or no. I'll give you a clue, it begins with 'n'. :cool: Now see if you can answer that question.

    God is the immediate first cause of all things. It cannot be any other way. Everthing is sustained not maintained by the Word of God.
    You have your god running behind tidying up after us. My God is Mighty. If there is to be muck in His universe then He will be the One that causes it.
    PS 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face. 22 "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue: 23 He who sacrifices thank offerings honors me, and he prepares the way so that I may show him the salvation of God."
    God would not be Sovereign if He could not.
    Oh no I say I don't I say. You are the one that says I say that. Not me buddy boy! Why the lie? Show me where! Seeing as you say I'm always insisting then I insist. Show me where or apologise.
    That's exactly it isn't it? You have not heard a word I've said. Do whatever they like is wrong with that. My God is Sovereign.
    Not me you can't. My God does as He pleases. Who is it that claims He can't stop sin if He so chooses but those who deny His Sovereignty over their tin pot god free will? You fight with the wrong weapon when you try to take me on Sovereignty. I know Him. You come to grief.
    ...when we all know that you do sin... You talk as if it is a thing we might do on the quite occasionally. We are sin.
    He leads He does not follow.
    Yes. So I contend.

    johnp.
     

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