Leaven is always a "type" of sin... oy!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by jw, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. jw

    jw
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    Matthew 13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

    So the Kingdom of God is like sin getting kneeded into some bread until everything is sinful. Great :rolleyes:

    This is why types should be used only where the Bible explicitly uses them. Case in point, "drinking is evil because leaven is a type of sin.." That works great for those who think drinking is evil.. but why not apply that to "Grilled cheese sandwhiches are evil because leaven is a type of sin"? Same logic, same type, same wrong application [​IMG]
     
  2. HankD

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    Some interpret this parable in exactly that way (If you have access, see Chafer's Systematic Theology Volume 5, Pgs. 352-353), saying that the "mystery" basis of the parable being infiltration by stealth as also in the parable of the wheat and the tares.


    HankD
     
  3. jw

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    Yeouch... Don't own that one.

    Does he just ignore the first part of the sentence.. "He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven.."?

    Not, "The kingdom of heaven is like bread that has leaven in it.." The leaven is clearly said to be the Kingdom of Heaven. Crazy stuff mang.

    I'm just not a fan of preaching on any types - unless explicity called a type, and then only applying it as the passage does. (e.g. "the serpent on the pole" and stuff like that)

    A recent one I heard that really set me off was a guy preaching on the altar of incense in the tabernacle. He said the altar was a type of worship, and read about how the altar had specific physical dimensions, and therefore worship has specific dimensions, and therefore CCM is the devil. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Shiloh

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    Pro 20:1 Grilled Cheese Sandwich is a mocker, grilled cheese sandwich is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.? :confused:
     
  5. Ransom

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    HankD said:

    Some interpret this parable in exactly that way (If you have access, see Chafer's Systematic Theology Volume 5, Pgs. 352-353), saying that the "mystery" basis of the parable being infiltration by stealth as also in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

    It surprises me how wrong Chafer could be on a parable that Jesus himself explains only a moment later. The meaning is not that the kingdom is infiltrated by the devil, but that the kingdom and the unrighteous live in the world together and will only be separated at the end of the age. (Matt. 13:36-43).
     
  6. mountainrun

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    Leaven neither represents good or evil in any parable or statement.
    It is merely used to signify a powerful influence.

    You must look at the context to see whether the thing having the influence is good or sinful.

    Matt 13:3. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto a {powerful influence}, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was {powerfully influenced.}

    Mat 16:11 How is it that you do not see that I was not talking to you about bread, but about keeping away from the {powerful influence} of the Pharisees and Sadducees?

    MR
     
  7. Helen

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    MR, what about 'infiltrating influence'? That seems a little more like leaven to me, but I liked your response...
     
  8. mountainrun

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    That'll work as well.
    Paul also used the phrase in Galatians 5:9 saying that "a little leaven makes a change in all the mass," referring to the teachers of legalism and circimcision.

    Gal 5:7 You were doing so well until someone made you turn from the truth.
    And that person was certainly not sent by the one who chose you.
    A little yeast can change a whole batch of dough,
    but you belong to the Lord.

    MR
     
  9. Ransom

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    mountainrun said:

    Leaven neither represents . . . It is merely used to signify . . .

    Huh?

    Not only is your statement incoherent, but it flies directly against what Jesus himself said: the Kingdom is like leaven. Not only does a simile represent (or signify) something, it comes right out and says what that is.
     
  10. jw

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    Have to agree with Ransom here. The parable clearly says, "..the kingdom of heaven is like leaven..." not, "the kingdom of heaven is like leaven which is like a powerful influence..."..

    That would be... well, a parable wrapped in a parable.
     
  11. Helen

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    Leaven works its way through whatever dough it is in. In that way it is a powerful influence. I think all mountainrun was saying is that, contrary to standard explanations, 'leaven' is not a standard picture of evil in the Bible! It more represents a powerful influence, of either evil or heaven, which works its way through wherever it is.

    As long as the meaning is clear, which I think it is, this kind of wrangling about words is expressly forbidden in the Bible.
     
  12. Humblesmith

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    Just do a search for every time leaven is used. I'm working from memory here, if we take the passage at hand and say leaven is signifying something good, it doesn't line up with every other use of leaven in the scriptures. The imagery of the NT is to take the gospel and put it on a lampstand, we are to lift up Jesus before all men, go tell all the world. We do not "hide" the gospel, but proclaim it. The only thing that we try to hide is sin. IMO, the bible uses birds, leaven, and tares to represent sin in the church. In an agricultural economy, birds were enemies to an orchard.

    But I agree there's a limit to what we should do with these types and images. I don't think we should try to take them too far...they're examples, literary devices that help us understand.
     
  13. Ransom

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    I'm working from memory here, if we take the passage at hand and say leaven is signifying something good, it doesn't line up with every other use of leaven in the scriptures.

    And there's no reason it has to, either. There's no rule that says a symbol or a metaphor has to stand for exactly the same thing every time it is used.

    The only thing that we try to hide is sin. IMO, the bible uses birds, leaven, and tares to represent sin in the church.

    No it doesn't. The tares represent sin in the world.
     
  14. jw

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    &lt;nod&gt; - what Ransom said. The Bible uses different metaphors at different times to symbolize different things.
     
  15. HankD

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    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    HankD
     
  16. mountainrun

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    Ransom, apparently Helen read my post. You apparently didn't comprehend it very well.

    I paraphrased it and it worked quite well.

    Matt 13:3. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto a {powerful influence}, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was {powerfully influenced.}

    The term leaven is neutral, much like a pistol. Even if fired by a criminal it does not become evil. It is just a pistol, and if fired by a policeman, it does not become good.

    Again, it is liken unto a message board, filled with those who simply like to argue endlessly over meaningless points, until the whole batch is filled with communications which do not edify.

    MR
     
  17. EdSutton

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    jw wrote about something he heard someone say, in the context of preaching on types :
    I am going to show my ignorance and ask, 'jw, what exactly is "CCM"?' I honestly don't have a clue, and can come up with nothing that seems to fit. Thank you,
    Ed
     
  18. EdSutton

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    I think maybe this discussion has somewhat missed the larger picture, even when some have touched on it. This is identified as "a parable", as opposed to "a type". There is some difference between the two. I do not identify something as a type, unless there seems to me to be a fairly clear 'antitype', and that one usually stated expressly. But that may be just me. As to parables, they seem to me to be, as I once heard someone say, an 'earthly 'story'' with an 'heavenly 'meaning''. In general, I would say that is a fairly good characterization. This parable is one of seven given in Matthew 13- the first is 'identified' in context, with 'the kingdom' and the next six all stating that "The kingdom of heaven is like...". Contrary to what is often posited, the 'householder' at the end of the discourse, is not identified as a 'parable', but is rather a simile, although it too speaks of 'the kingdom'. I once heard an instructor caution against trying to always make a parable "stand on all fours". I think that is good advice. As to the topic heading, I think we have collectively covered that "always" is too strong for what Scripture is saying, at least here on this subject.
    Ed
     
  19. EdSutton

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    Something that is specifically identified as leaven is found in Matthew 16:6-12. That is the false doctrine of the Pharisees and Saducees. Incidentally, the phrases "false doctrine(s)" and/or "false teaching(s)" never actually are found in Scripture, to my knowledge, at least in the KJV, RV, or ASV. Nonetheless, the principle is there. Helen touched on the actual parable and the permeation of leaven. Good point. What is the actual function of leaven. I'd suggest there are several. I think we see a lot of it in what is preached, i.e. 'the message'. Why is so much leaven preached? What does leaven do, and why should we be wary? Using leaven in bread as the example:

    1.) It works its way through the whole thing. (Matt. 13:33)
    2.) It makes it more palatable.
    3.) In actuality, it sours it, because-
    4.) It starts the process of rotting, as it is actually fermentation.
    5.) It pokes it full of holes.
    6.) It makes it 'lighter'. But the biggest reason is-
    7.) It's the 'best' way to "raise the dough". :rolleyes:
    Ed
     
  20. Johnv

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    I fail to see how anyone can come to the scriptural conclusion that "leaven" is always "sin". Scripture says that the Word is leaven, and that the Word never comes back void.

    Context, folks, context.
     

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