Left behind series

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Mark-in-Tx, Jun 17, 2002.

  1. Mark-in-Tx

    Mark-in-Tx
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    I have read the first and second book in the left behind series and I am now in the third. I am loving them. I just wondered if anybody else was enjoying them as well.

    [ June 17, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Mark-in-Tx ]
     
  2. ATeenageChristian

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    Personally Mark, I did not enjoy them. The Left Behind: The Kids series was good the first time I read it. When I re-read it, the books stunk. I don't agree with most of the theology in the Left Behind Series. :rolleyes: I agree only with this fact:

    There will be a rapture and we will have to choose to accept Jesus Christ into our hearts or be left behind. There will be a second chance.

    Sorry if this sounds confusing to you, but it is hard to write about MY reaction to the series. I haven't read the KIDS books in ages. I sold them all.
     
  3. donnA

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    Mark, I've read them, and I did enjoy them. I guess it just depends on a persons view of the rapture. You can't please all the people all the time.
    I read them for what they are, fiction. Although they do pretty much reflect my view of the rapture(will not debate it, so don't try). About tha only think I would argue is their idenity of the two wittensses.
     
  4. Chemnitz

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    Eh, they have very questionable theology on several fronts, most glaringly is the whole endtimes thing.

    First couple of books are ok fiction after that it just goes down hill. The books just become overly cliched and predictable endtimes stuff.
     
  5. donnA

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    If their trying to follow scripture(no matter what your brand of theology is) they would be predictable. The only question then is how they choose to portray it. Some of that I don't agree with.
    They are I believe following the order of events in scripture, but in their own personal interpetation. Which is what every christian book is.
     
  6. Chemnitz

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    It is their handling of the storyline, yes the basic storyline is predictable because of the nature of the story. It iss their handling of the details of the storyline that is predictable. I make it a game to try and predict what is going to happen in the next book and I was right far too often in the Left Behind discounting the fact of its basis in their interpretation.
     
  7. AITB

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    I personally am uncomfortable about those books because while saying they are "Christian" I believe that all the graphically described violence and bloodshed in them appeals to the flesh.

    I don't personally find it edifying. I've read them but my response was distaste rather than a joy in the truths they share.

    But I wouldn't say they 'aren't Christian'. Just, that I think they appeal to the flesh too much. Imo.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Hello!

    I'm new.

    I brought a book of Left Behind Series - 'Left Behind' about 4 years ago. But, funny, Holy Spirit hinders me from being to read that book. Because I do not have peace with that book. I still have it in my place. But I did not read it since for 4 years. I would like to read it anytime, if I want to. But I still feels hinder from the Holy Spirit on 'Left Behind Series'.

    Because these are unbiblical. Pretribulationism have lot of errors by interpreting in the Bible.

    I was a pretribber before.

    On day, my friends showed me of 2 Thess 2:1-3, and Matt 24:29-31. That how I left pretribulation camp 10 years ago.

    I have do nothing with my Christian friends as Baptist who love to read 'Left Behind Series'. Because I do not want to cause church into mess up. I better leave them alone. I have to be very careful with them. Better to discuss with a person who have opening heart and open mind too in private talk.

    I did converted 4 Baptists to posttrib so far. Because they already confidence in me as good relationship first for several months. Then, I did shared with them about the doctrine. They were shocked, and learned lot from the Bible about it.

    I pray that many Christians (SBC, IBC, Assembly of God, etc) open their eyes to see the truth from the Bible on this issue.

    4 Baptists who I coneverted them to posttrib. They do not read books - 'Left Behind Series'. Because, they know something wrong with them.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  9. tyndale1946

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    Pretrib... Posttrib... Historical... Spiritual... and Preterist... Go ahead pick one!... There are many to chose from... but which one is the right one?... Hummmmm!... but I'm a Preterist!... Chew on that one for awhile!... Then we will talk!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

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    I thought the character development was very, very poor and that the prose was stilted at best.

    Joshua
     
  11. stubbornkelly

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    I'll second that, Joshua. I got most of the way through the first book, and just couldn't go on. The writing was so poor that I was having trouble keeping my interest high enough to even get to any theology. The characters seemed more like caricatures to me. I stopped reading with about 100 pages left, and just haven't picked it back up. This was over a year ago.

    I guess that in a market with very little readable Christian fiction, this series is better than most (although keep in mind that I've not read further than the 1st book), but it's sad that mediocre books can vault to the top because there is a large segment of population just starving for topical fiction.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Hello!

    Sorry to saying it.

    Preterism is a false doctrine.

    Preterism believes Jesus already arrived earth in year 70 A.D. according to Matthew 24.

    Where is Jesus now?

    Jesus is still in the heaven sits on the throne right now.

    Mt. Olivet is not yet valley - Zech 14:4.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  13. Bro. Curtis

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    You post this a lot. Usually when everyone's in bed.

    Mathhew 24 is to Israel. It has nothing to say to present day Christians.

    Preterism is a result of studying scripture against scripture. Since you are posting the exact same thing on several different threads, I will post my answer to you, from last night.....

    I don't like to take just 3 verses and change the way I think about something. At first glance, 2Thess 2:1-3 could relate to a post-trib stance, but if you go to verse 7, we find that the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit has stopped. I think this supports the pretrib stance because the biggest Christian influence in the world is....us Christians. With us gone, the Holy Spirit not around, no conviction of sin.

    I also think that Paul might be referring to the fact that the Jews at the time expected Christ to defeat all their enemies, and he didn't. Verse 3 is talking about the coming of Christ to rule and reign on Earth, not the rapture.

    Church-age Christians are promised salvation from the end-time wrath...
    1Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Romans 5:9, Revelation 3:10

    Jesus promises us mansions in Heaven.(John 14:1-3) If the rapture came at the end of the tribulation, the promise to church-age believers could not come to pass.

    The Church cannot be overcome, but the tribulation-era saints will be.(Matthew 16:18, Revelation 13:7)

    The witnesses for God, during the tribulation, is not the church, but the sealed Jews.(Revelation 7)

    Yup...pretrib here.

    Too many verses supporting it. The only way to disprove a post-trib rapture is to take verses out of context, and ignore the others.
     
  14. postrib

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    I believe Matthew 24 is spoken to Christians, as is Mark 13. Why do many who believe pre-trib say Matthew 24 isn't for Christians, yet then say Matthew 24:36-44 is for Christians? Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus tells them: "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). Unbelieving Jews will not be hated for Jesus' name's sake. Matthew 24:9's "ye" refers to Christians -- Jew or Gentile -- as does every "ye" throughout Matthew 24.

    I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    Note that we see a single angel restraining Satan at the 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

    Therefore, a single angel could be restraining the Antichrist.

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

    "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

    Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

    Note that Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

    Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

    Some say the saints being overcome by the Antichrist in Revelation 13:7-10 can't be the church because "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against the church (Matthew 16:18). But the Bible says that we Christians will still be on the earth when the Antichrist arises (Revelation 14:12-13, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Evil rulers have been given power to kill Christians from the very beginning of the church down until this day. It will not be any different in the great tribulation. Our dying under the Antichrist will be no different than the church's dying under the Roman emperors who persecuted them so cruelly.

    Evil can prevail over our bodies, but never our spirits (Revelation 2:10).

    Even though the Antichrist will be able to overcome many Christians physically, all the powers of hell will not succeed in eradicating the church from the earth, for some Christians will be "alive and remain" until the Lord’s 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15), and the tribulation will be shortened for their sake (Matthew 24:22).

    Also, there's another way to look at Matthew 16:18. The "gates of hell" may not refer to Satan’s ability to attack the church (for nobody attacks with gates), but rather to his ability to keep the lost in bondage (Hebrews 2:14-15). When we preach the gospel to the lost and they are saved from hell and brought into the church, no power of hell can keep them (Acts 26:18).

    The church is built upon the rock of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:6), who preached in hell (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6) and led those who believed out of the gates of hell and into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10). The gates of hell did not prevail against the rock (Psalm 107:14-16).

    Note that the 144,000 are Christians who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Hello!

    Curtis,

    You said, "Matthew 24 is to Israel."

    Jesus does not saying it. Jesus was spoken to his disciples, all disciples were Christians. Jesus told to them, "You", "Ye" 20 times in Matthew 24.

    Jesus was not speak to Israel. He was speak to his disciples as they are Christians. Matthew 24 apply to us as Christians from Early Church to today, and also future Great Tribulation too.

    Pretribbers often use Matt 24:42, and 44 to apply us as Church. Yes that correct. But they take that two verses out of the context of Matthew 24. Whole of Matthew 24 is apply to us.

    You said,

    "We find that the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit has stopped." - 2 Thess 2:7.

    Apostle Paul was not talking about Holy Spirit in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. He was talking about Antichrist.

    "He" of 2 Thess 2:7 is Antichrist, because its context start with "man of sin" - verse 3.

    2 Thess 2:7 telling us that Antichrist is now restraining from being revealed. Because it is not Antichrist's time to be revealed yet. God knows when time comes, He will allow Antichrist to be revaled - verse 6.

    Satan is now limited from doing greater miracles and deceived people.

    Good example - Job. Satan went up to heaven to face God sat on the throne. Satan asked Him, for permission to touch Job's body. Satan can't do anything, because Satan obeys God's authority.

    God holds Satan from being to be revaeled, it is not yet time for Satanh to be revealed. God knows the time. When time comes, God will allow Antichrist to be revealed.

    He will be take out of the midst-mystery, and then he will be revealed - verse 8.

    "Taken out of the way" is not rapture.

    Paul was talking about Antichrist, Antichrist will be taken out of the way(mystery), and then he shall be revealed - verse 8.

    Jesus told us, that He is always with us TILL the end of the world - Matt 28:20. Clearly, Holy Spirit is always be with the Church TILL the end of the world- at second advent.

    You said,

    "Church-age Christians are promised salvation from the end-time wrath... 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Romans 5:9, Revelation 3:10."

    Amen!

    But not Rev 3:10.

    Yes, the Bible promises us that God will delivery us from the wrath.

    The question is WHEN???

    I ask you question:

    Where can you find A verse in Revelation saying that saints will suffer the wrath of God during Great Tribulation??

    We are saved from the wrath of God. Why? Because we received salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5:9.

    Wrath of God is for upon unbelievers who reject Christ - John 3:36.

    Pretribbers use Rev. 3:10 is a pretribulation.

    "Keep thee from the hour of temptation" - they saying it is the promise that we will be rapture away from the Great Tribulation.

    "Keep" means to guard.

    "The hour of temptation" is not 7 year Tribulation.

    I want to you another verses that compare with Rev. 3:10 to understand better.

    John 17:15 - "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." Jesus told to His Father in heaven in his prayer. He asked his Father, that He not take Christians out of the world(sound like "rapture"), but to protect Christians from evil- world.

    "Keep them from the evil" is same as "Keep thee from the hour of temptation."

    "Hour" of Rev. 3:10 does not say it is 7 years.

    Hour is a period, era.

    Good example - Mark 14:41 - "the hour is COME; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

    Jesus said, that his time is come to arrived that he is going to face cross of his death.

    I have another verse compare with Rev. 3:10.

    1 Corinthians 10:13 - "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

    It tells us that we will have temptations, but we will able to escape from it. God knows our weakeness.

    Good example Christian males' weakeness of flesh is lust on woman.

    God is able to limited us from face any temptations.

    Good example - Joseph. He faced master's daughter. She tried to persuaded him to sex with her. He refused. She tried to him several times. He determined to flee away from her as she hold his garment - Gen. 39:7-13.

    "temptation" - Rev. 3:10 is not wrath. It is trials, tests, and tribulations.

    I have another verse to compare with Rev. 3:10.

    Rev. 2:10 - "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye maybe tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

    Rev. 2:10 tells us, that we must be endure while face persecution, suffering till death, not give up while face persecutions, and tribulations. We should be faithful till death, then we will receive reward.

    I have one more verse to compare with Rev. 3:10.

    James 1:12 - "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

    James 1:12 is same with Rev. 2:10 and 3:10.

    I have chart on the compare of James 1:12 and Rev. 2:10.

    James 1:12 Rev. 2:10

    vs. 12a vs. 10a

    "he is tried" "ye may be tried"

    vs. 12b vs. 10b

    "crown of life" "crown of life"

    I have one more chart on compare of James 1:12 and Rev. 3:10-11.

    James 1:12 Rev. 3:10-11

    vs. 12a vs. 10

    "he is tried" "to try them"

    vs. 12b vs. 11

    "crown of life" "thy crown"

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about wrath, and rapture.
    It is talking about tribulations, trials upon the Christians.

    I have Matthew Henry Commentary with me. I brought it 9 years ago, when I was a pretribber. Matthew Henry wrote them in 19th Century.

    His comment on Rev. 3:10:

    "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peacce will make them faithful in times of persecutions."

    I agree with his comment on Rev. 3:10.

    Rev. 3:10 talking about in the times of trials, we faced them, we should be endure with it, and not give up on them, we will receive the reward.

    Rev. 3:10 is not future - 7 years of Tribulation period. It is already happening in Early Church many centuries ago. Also, today many Christians are already face trials and tribulation in their times. Also, Christians will face trials in Great Tribulaiton.

    Christ promises us, that he will care of us, while we are facing trials and temptations like as protect us from any danger persecutions or heavy temptation like as Christian male faces great temptation - lust on lady. Christ will not allow anyone of us to face great temptations, because He knows our weakeness. He limits us from face temptation in his purpose. But, in 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us, that we should carry temptation, that we can flee from them.

    James 1:2 - "My brethren, count it all JOY when ye fall into divers temptations."

    We should be joy while we face trials, problems, troubles, tribulations, and persecutions.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about wrath or rapture. It is talking about temptations.

    John 14:1-3 - Jesus does not saying it pretrib rapture. Jesus promises us that he will COME again to receive us, to dwell in our Father's house where Christ lives.

    I love John 14:1-3! I have no problem with it.

    Yes Jesus will come again to receive us and we will live with Christ in New Jerusalem forever and ever. Amen!

    144,000 Jews will NOT be sealed till AFTER 6th seal broken- after tribulation - Rev. 6:12-15, and Matt 24:29 too.

    Notice word- "four winds" is find three times in New Testament that relate with second advent - Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, and Rev. 7:1.

    When the four angels will hold the four winds of the earth, then 144,000 Jews will be SEALED same as gathering together all Jews include Gentiles (Rev. 7:9-17)- rapture.

    144,000 Jews will be sealed(gathering together) at the END of Great Tribulation, not at beginning of Tribulation.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    Yeah, well I'm still a pre-tribber. Those viewpoints have been posted and debated before.

    We have a number of other discussions going on, how come you spend so much time trying to convert us all to post-tribbers ?

    When we get a new member, posting everywhere that we are all wrong, and harping on one subject only, I start to wonder a bit...
     
  17. postrib

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    I believe knowing the rapture's timing matters because Jesus said it's possible for those who believe to subsequently "be offended" by tribulation and fall away:

    "The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

    "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

    "They, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation [peirasmos] fall away" (Luke 8:13).

    "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try [peirasmos] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

    I don't believe someone necessarily will fall away because they believe in a pre-trib rapture, or won't fall away because they believe in a post-trib rapture, but true believers -- whether pre or post -- can fall away in tribulation.

    And I believe Jesus told us everything we'd have to face beforehand for a good reason, so that we'd be less likely to be offended and fall away: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). To be forewarned is to be forearmed: mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (and possibly even physically, if the Lord so leads).

    I believe the pre-trib doctrine may be setting up many in the church for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1), and this departure from the faith (apostasy) will happen before Jesus comes to rapture us: "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasy] first" (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 3).
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    The church is waiting, not for the anti-chriast, but for the redemption of the Son of God. Nobody can know the hour of the rapture, it is imminent. But the return of Christ is going to be preceeded by specific signs.(1Th 1:9,Titus 2:12,13,Matthew 24:42-44, James 5:8&9,1John 2:28, Revelation 1:3)

    The New Testament believer is promised redemption from the day of darkness. 1Thessalonians 5:1-9

    Notice in Revelation, the church is absent from chapter 3 until chapter 19.

    Curtis the pre-tribber.
     
  19. Sojourner

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    I've actually enjoyed the series - (YES! this is a deliberate attempt to return to the thread topic!)(Yes, I hope it works)

    There are some suspenseful moments, and I think some decent character development, IMhO.

    Some of the books have been let downs, anti-climatic, or transitionally anticipating the next (if you saw Star Wars 2:War of the Clones, you know what I mean about transition pieces that really can't stand on their own two feet). :eek: :eek:

    The best thing I got out of them was a greater sense of urgency in evangelizing the lost or unchurched.

    Anyone else find a similar experience? ;)

    David
     
  20. postrib

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    Someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation doesn't look for the Antichrist instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman doesn't look for birth pangs instead of the birth of her child, but they know what must come first (1 Peter 4:12-13). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13). Christ's coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    I don't believe the Bible says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

    "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    I'm glad we agree that the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 aren't the church.

    But note that we Christians are mentioned throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

    Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation.
     

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