left/right?

The validity of these statements is proven in western Europe where most nations are socialist and Church attendance is 3-4%.

 

That's right. One of the saddest things I can recall on a mission trip was being in Scotland and England, the one-time seat of Christendom, and seeing all the closed and abandoned church buildings.

But what do you expect when Darwin is buried in a place of honor in Westminster and John Knox's grave is now a parking spot in a car park.

 

Socialism had nothing to do with it. The church is dying because it is forsaking its primary responsibilities which are to win the lost and preach and teach God's word. Activities just like you've seen on this board are killing it. They make the church irrelevant because it no longer meets people's deepest needs. It has become too much like the world it should be trying to save.

 

Excellent perspective. We have some how adopted this idea that the church is responsible to 'fix' the state and vice-versa.

God can take care of His people now matter what the state is like. American Christians have somehow come to the conclusion that the state is their to serve them. It is not. In the normal scheme of things we will always be out of kilter with the world, socialist, marxist, communist, or any other political of economic system.

 

In Mathew 7:13 Where it say's we are to enter through the Narrow gate and take this path. And that the Wide gate and path that many takes leads to destruction.
To me this is the difference of being Conservative or being a Liberal.

Conservative = NARROW Path

Liberals = WIDE Path






"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

 

Strange coming from a region that has a state sponsored church!!

 

I agree with your statement [emphasis added]: Activities just like you've seen on this board are killing it. When professing Christians endorse homosexuality and infanticide it can bring the judgment of God, even on individual churches. As I recall [and I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong] the Episcopalians have a homosexual woman as presiding Bishop.

Actually it is not the church's job to meet peoples deepest needs. Only God can do that. Also it is not the church's job to save people [unless you are Roman Catholic]; that is the task of the Holy Spirit.

 

I think the Scriptures do indeed teach that the church is responsible for "fixing the state".

From John 16:

Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Jesus is teaching that it is specifically through the gift of the Holy Spirit that the world will be convicted. Who is the Spirit given to? All people? No. The Spirit is given solely to the church. Who is "the world" that will be convicted by it? Is it just "other sinners as individuals"?

Not likely. Jesus must certainly include the very institutions and systems that men have constructed - that is, the institutions of governance. After all, Jesus has spent the better part of His ministry announcing the kingdom of God is here. How odd would it be for Jesus to announce a kingdom whose authority did not include the very institutions that govern society.

One of the roles of the church is to challenge the world, including its institutions, with the gospel. And the gospel, despite widespread misunderstanding, is not merely "you can be saved by faith in Jesus". It is a proclamation of a new King just as Paul says in Romans 1:3-4! Jesus is now enthroned over all - not just our "inner lives" but all.

The Holy Spirit is given to the church. And the church then is the vehicle by which the world is convicted. So while it is of course the job of the church to “win souls”, it is no less the job of the church to call implement the kingdom – to advocate for the enshrinement of kingdom of God values in government.

 

Clearly you have no scripture to support your theory and we all know the gates in Mat 7 have nothing to do with party affiliation. will bring this to your attention, look at who Jesus said will be on His Right at the judgment. Could it be the left will become right and the right will become left when Jesus comes?

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

You’re right; a prime example is the Orthodox Christian Church. She survived the period of Communist Russia’s hard-line rule against the Church, where hundreds of thousands lost their lives. The OCC continues to survive today among Nations that are ruled by Islam…Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Egypt to name a few.

In XC
-

 

Until coming to this board I have never seen such solutions of bringing sinners to Christ. Some advocate ignoring and blocking them out because they are sinners. Won't let them in the Church because they are sinners. Don't want to go near them because they are sinners. Don't want to extend them a hand because they are sinners. Sinners are why Christ came, how do we leave them out the Church?

And just like the conservatives tried to scare you into voting for their candidate, they try to scare sinners into the Church. Seeing this was unbelievable. Hard to believe you would walk up to a person and call them a murderer and baby killer then say "I represent God, now join my cause". Reading between the lines here it is clearly being said, "God will hate you if you're not republican, now which party are you"? "Shame on anyone who claims to be a Christian and would vote Democrat". Jesus came for those who are lost, not the ones who know they're Gods favorites. They don't need Jesus.

I think this is causing the declining Church. It's lost it's focus for its true mission and purpose. The Church seems to believe they are here only to show up on Sunday and pray for the sick if "you're one of us". Its now beneath us to meet the sinner where they are, meet their needs then offer them a better life. We now believe it is anti-Christian to go where the lost are so they can have someone to guide them to the light. I think Jesus may have been off a bit, we have taken our light and hid it under a bushel.

Scaring people into the Church is like the old fire and brimstone sermons. We can't scare people into the Church just as the conservatives couldn't scare enough votes for McCain. The Church needs to correct this ideology before it will ever be effective ambassador for the Kingdom.

 

Sorry to pick you out OldRegular but this is an example of what I just said. The Church is tearing itself apart which is making Satan's job very easy. We fight each other then ask the sinners and lost if they want to join.

Would you want to join the Sunday fight club?

 

If you read my posting I said "TO ME" And YOU have no rights to say how I see ANYTHING. And to your "Mat 7 have nothing to do with party affiliation" I don't see that as a PARTY AFFILIATION. That also to me is something completely different.
And as far as the rest of your POST I don't care for ANYTHING I've seen you say here before. So I just considered the Source.

 

What I quoted was scripture so if you find that source unreliable then I'll have to respect your view.

Also, if you really mean "TO ME" then perhaps you should leave scripture out of the post. Adding scripture implies the Bible agrees with your view. A Bible that I am set to and will defend.

 

Could you please link us to some posts by BB members that advocate the things you are saying here?

Again, quotes and links to BB posters who have said such thing please.

Same request...

The idea of sinners going to hell is a very real and very scary reality. If you have a problem with the doctrinal belief in a real hell and that sin results in eternal separation from God in a real place called hell, then you have a problem with God's Word, not the people who proclaim the truth of God's Word.

I think you may be confusing ministering to and sharing the gospel with lost people with the Theologically liberal idea that the church ought to welcome unrepentant sinners such as practicing homosexuals and people who openly advocate for the murder of babies into its fellowship as members of the body of Christ.

Finally, if you fail to provide clear quotes and links to BB posters saying the things you have indicated above you have born false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

That's right. Of course it is done intentionally because there is no foundation to stand on.

 

True, but it isn't ours to scare them from hell, we should invite them to the kingdom. Scarring them from hell doesn't seem to be working.

I think I was clear, the Church is the place for sinners. It is why Jesus came and died. Jesus himself showed us that we should love the sinner but hate the sin. We have turned to throwing out the sinner with the sin.

I don't have to go any further than your post...

I repeat, the Church is the place where sinners ought to be. How will they repent if we won't let them in the Church? That become sin free then we'll let you in doctorine isn't in the bible and not in the Church's design.

 

Look you and I have had some pretty hot political debates and that is fine. However, you know nothing of my ministry or that of my church. You do not know the first thing about our outreach programs or how we serve the needy and lost in our community.

The church, the called out assembly of believers, is the spotless bride of Christ. It is not some rag-tag collection of born again believers and lost sinners all living happily together in fellowship as common members of the body of Christ.

Should we invited the lost to come to the church building and hear the gospel? By all means. Should we invite our lost friends, family, and neighbors to events sponsored by "XYZ Baptist Church" where they will be confronted by the truth of God's Word? By all means. Should we accept unrepentent lost sinner into the fellowship of believers and count them as members of the body of Christ. By no means.

Like I said, I am calling on you to provide clear quotes and links to BB posters who have advocated the things you said in your previous post. If you fail to do so I will be calling for the BB Administrative Council to take action against you for bearing false witness against the brothers and sisters in Christ who post here.