LEGALISM KILLS AND DESTROYS THE CHURCH

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dallasdid, Sep 15, 2003.

  1. Dallasdid

    Dallasdid
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    I hate legalism!!!! I hate it when we strangle people in rules and regulations. We condem people if they dont look like the perfect baptist. A tie and suit jacket, or for ladies a dress that goes to ankle and a lot of other things that legalistic people make big deals about. If you raise your hands in a worship service it is seen as wrong. You are charismatic and your not following the Bible. My friend went witnessing with 2 of her friends and guy with a sign that says "the party ends in hell" was condeming to people around him. Nothing about Grace nothing about Gods love. Legalism is thorns that choke the life out of Christians. I was at a church that people sang with frowns on their faces any thing that was not classical music type singing was wrong. If you did not have a tie and suit jacket you did not fit the mold. Legalism makes me mad it is the kind of thing that will condem other Christians because they are not witnessing like he are she does. Billy Graham is condemed by legalist. Any one who tries to reach teens through Christian music is wrong. Any one who tries to be loving to a person and form a relationship with them and not treating them as some kind of convert and nothing else. Legalism needs to end it sickens me. If a Christian has spiked hair ohhh the unpardable sin. If a Christian looks different oh no they must not be saved. Lets start an anti legalism movment and show this world christianity is not about frowns and rules and regulations but about life and life more abuntly. Baptist legalist go around with no smiles what happen to Christ joy in us!!1 what happen to the life we have. Shout out with me on this thread voice your opinion
     
  2. BrianT

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  3. Dallasdid

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    what I want is not for me to live how i want and not let any one tell me different. I want this you pharisee like way to stop. Where we condem people because they are not like us are they dont fit the baptist mold. Sorry about the "s" word i was going to change it and forgot to when i hit sent. but bottom line is Bible is not all about rules and regulations my friend i dont know what Bible your reading its about Grace. Its about how we are not justified by the law. That is what pharisees taught that it is all rules and regulations. You can have a 400 dollor suit a slick hair cut and be as sinful as any one off MTV. Like if a Christian teen are college student was saved and had long hair, or piercings and even tatoos if he walked in to baptist churches today many of them would give him strang looks and not treat him like a brother in Christ. Because if your living for God you will have a 500 dollor suit and a slick hair cut right ? isnt that Bible ummm no! and im tired of seeing pharisee like baptist thumb their nose at any thing they dont prefer. I am tired of legalistic baptist using their opinions and trying to make it look like it is from the Bible or God. Like some one had a threat about the new Bible for teen girls and on the cover had a girl whose arms were shown and people got all in an up roar. That is what i am talking about. I went on friday night evangelism and a college student had tatoos Christian theme ones and was using them to open up a conversation on which to share Christ now even as people read this the pharisee like attitude goes off "bless God if that boy was a true christian he wouldent have tatoos" "well he ouht to dress up like me" and this is the attitude that drives the youth away. Too many pastors and youth pastors trying to get teens and college students to look like them and be like them and fit their molds and their idea of what a christian is. And they got no bible for it what so ever. If some of us teens did what Christ did today and went to visit people who have piercings all over, are teens who while you talk to them would make out with boy friend are girl friend basically the hardcord heavy metal crowd you would hear rants and ravings from all sorts of people. Yet isnt that what Christ did? didnt He reach out to those in low positions. Watch you will see rude responses of people trying to nit pick every thing. Jesus did not go to the rich people friends only he went to those who the very relegious rejected. We as Christians are so quick to judge if it is not our prefrence it is not right and we drive away people. They see Christians walking around like they got no hope in the world but oh they got a 3 piece suit on and oh they got their king james Bible and oh they got the nice hair cut. Well i would rather be some one who legalistic people condem and yet who reaches out to the lost people. Was at a football game these people dressed in black and piercings walked by no one greeted them no one said hi and no one took the chance to show them love. But hey this is the Bible belt baptist all through the crowd all i saw was mockery and evil looks. My heart went out to them i was being manager for football team running around getting water to football players. But i wish i would of gone talked to them because if i dont reach out to them who will. Who gives you a right to tear some one down because they dont fit the criteria for what a baptist should look like. We should all be ashamed of our selves and go ahead criticize me try to nit pick everything but i got Bible for what im saying and you pharisees will be in for a rude awakening one day.
     
  4. Dallasdid

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    brian go ahead and make light of it but that is what Christ did He went out and reached to people you condem. to people who we think should dress like us talk like us. it is really funny that is why youth and college students are turned off from Christianty because people like to shove it down their throat and make it all about rules and regulations not what Christ did and i got Bible for it. John 15:11 "and these things have I spoken unto you that my joy might remain in you and that your joy might be full" there Christians today aint got one ounce of joy oh but they got a nice suit man i would rather dress like a freak then dress like a pharisee and show love to others. Brian sleep go ahead that is what most our churches today are doing and Christians sleeping why lost teens and young adults go to a hell that was not created for them. Make light of it one day when you stand before God pull that stunt again
     
  5. Walls

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    Dallas,

    We have come from churches in which it was never stated but heavily implied that if you weren't just so, you were not right with God. You must put whatever bad experience you have had behind you.

    A saved person is on a walk with the Lord. As you travel down the path the Lord reveals things to you that you never knew. Sometimes it is about grace and mercy other times it is about a standard of living. If we want to be Christ like we must meet His example - Grace without compromise. Christ was compassionate but never wavered.

    One persons walk isn't the same as someone else's and the Lord deals with each of us in a way that is appropriate and special to meet our needs and His purpose. Yes there are those that are bordering on being a pharisee, but then there are those that are bordering on being a heathen. The real question is how do we handle these people and situations? Do we show grace or are we as guilty as those we are accusing?
     
  6. timothy 1769

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    I hate legalism!!!! I hate it when we strangle people in rules and regulations.

    1John 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    We condem people if they dont look like the perfect baptist. A tie and suit jacket, or for ladies a dress that goes to ankle and a lot of other things that legalistic people make big deals about.

    1Timothy 2:9
    In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

    If you raise your hands in a worship service it is seen as wrong. You are charismatic and your not following the Bible.

    1Timothy 2:8
    I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

    My friend went witnessing with 2 of her friends and guy with a sign that says "the party ends in hell" was condeming to people around him. Nothing about Grace nothing about Gods love.

    Revelation 21:8
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    John 8:44
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Luke 13:3
    I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Legalism is thorns that choke the life out of Christians.

    Luke 8
    14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

    I was at a church that people sang with frowns on their faces any thing that was not classical music type singing was wrong. If you did not have a tie and suit jacket you did not fit the mold.

    Philipians 2
    2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    Legalism makes me mad it is the kind of thing that will condem other Christians because they are not witnessing like he are she does.

    Matthew 7:3
    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    Billy Graham is condemed by legalist.

    He works closely with catholics:

    Galatians 1:8
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

    Romans 16:17
    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    2Corinthians 6:14
    Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    Any one who tries to reach teens through Christian music is wrong.

    Ephesians 5:19
    Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

    Colossians 3:16
    Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

    1corinthians 1
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Any one who tries to be loving to a person and form a relationship with them and not treating them as some kind of convert and nothing else.

    Mark 12
    28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    1Cor 15
    33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

    1Cor 5
    9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

    Legalism needs to end it sickens me. If a Christian has spiked hair ohhh the unpardable sin. If a Christian looks different oh no they must not be saved.

    Romans 12:2
    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Lets start an anti legalism movment and show this world christianity is not about frowns and rules and regulations but about life and life more abuntly. Baptist legalist go around with no smiles what happen to Christ joy in us!!1 what happen to the life we have. Shout out with me on this thread voice your opinion


    Philipians 4
    4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
     
  7. Dallasdid

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    Tim im guessing your old because you must have trouble seeing. You took phrases out and used them to show things i never attended. You must of not read it. I think raising hands is good friend i said legalism is against any of that. And modesty for woman show me from the Bible men are suppose to wear 3 piece suits and dress like u ? whats that oh wait it does not say that oh man there goes your legalistic ways out the window. And woman should dress modestly once again i am saying it is stupid yes stupid to make big deals about girls not having dresses go to ankles nothing inmodest about a girls arms showing to u should see how silly people got talking about the new teen Bible. Oh let me guess woman cant wear pants to because that is what ur 1611 says right? oh and we must all sit in church with frowns on our face go to some baptist churches around the states and see for your self. They have no joy they have no love. They are quick to judge just like you tim. Wow imagine a world full of tims man would that ever be boring. We are different we are not some crazy cult timmy were we dress all the same. Your prefences are just that yours stop making them every one elses and stop making them out to be Gods message because its not. And go ahead attack billy graham lets see timmy who would God honor more Billy who has lead millions to Christ are timmy who has lead not even close to that to Christ. Oh but he doesnt do things like i would ohhhh nooo it must be wrong. Oh wait he wore a leather jacket once ohhh nooo that has to be against the Bible some where. GROW UP LEGALIST ALL THE LEGALIST GROW UP YOUR CHOKING THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES ME UP SET. AND timmy Jesus got mad to so u think ur so wise to misquote and take words and twist them Jesus got mad for a rightous cause tell me Jesus was right for doing that wasnt He? and didnt Jesus reach out to those who no one else did like the poor and the ones who the overly relegious rejected? maybe im mistaken. But if we did that today if we tried to reach out to teens who are lost teens who dont look like us are talk like us oh man would we get complaints. Oh you should not be talking to them is what i would hear oh lets just let them go to hell right tim at least im not as wicked as them wow u know sounds just like that man Jesus told us about. The pharisee you keep your god in a box I will not keep the true livnig God in a box. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Wisdom Seeker

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    Dalasdid, I can understand your frustration.

    Church should be a place to worship God, not where a person feels they are being judged by other people's dogmatic interpretations of what they think the Bible says.

    It's a real shame that outward appearance has been made the God of the pious Christian. What a person looks like should come from study and practice of the Bible, not some man made manual or commonly ascribed attitude.

    When it comes down to it, adults should not tell others how to show godliness outwardly. Outward appearance can be faked...godliness is deaper and shows on it's own.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Timothy is a good example of what Dallas is decrying. SAYING they are using the Word of God for standards, but in reality it is the word of MAN acting as God that strangles people in rules and regulations.
    Emphasis of legalism is on the commandments. Emphasis of grace is on the HIS.
     
  10. gb93433

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    The only people Jesus condemned were the legalists or religionists if you would rather cam them that.

    Those who are the weakest people are the legalists. They do not understand God's grace nor the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. Christ came to give us fredom; freedom from sin, freedom from bondage. it is the turh that sets us free.

    The truth is that the legalist does not measure spirituality the same way God does. God measures spirituality by relationship not by a set of rules and regulations. We know if we have a good relationship with God. Every person is capable of having a relationship with God but not everyone is at the same level of maturity.

    At first the deacons complained about some of those who were coming to church. I didn't waver I just them, "Good." They told me that some of those people they had never seen before. Almost five years ago I led a man to Christ who played music in bars at night. When he came to Christ it changed his entire family and his life. His entire family are Christians today. I didn't know it at the time but he played for the singing group at one of the Super Bowls. Later on he started talking with me about his struggle with playing in the bars and being a Christian. I never said a word to him before that time. I prayed for him and just let God work. He was in the Bible study I led and we went visiting each week. Today he is leading the music in a church. The church has doubled in the last two years. He is a changed man. He is turned on for Jesus. Not too long ago his son led one of his friends to Christ. If I had looked at how long his hair was and the tatoos he had I would have never talked with him.

    Instead of singing and playing secular music in bars he is singing and playing to the glory of God in church now. In the chruch where he leads music he writes much of the music and its lyrics.

    My advice is to ignore the legalists and go for Jesus. Start sharing your faith with those who need Jesus. Jesus never reached the religionists and neither will you until they face themselves and how God sees their sin.
     
  11. Caretaker

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    Just like the Judaizers who were corrupting the Church at Galatia, the legalists are adding "thou shalt be like me", to the Gospel of Christ. Their emphasis upon keeping the commandments, and they reference the Law, and these are not the commandements of Christ:

    1 John 3:

    22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    23: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment .

    24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    A Servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  12. Gunther

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    I agree that legalism is a cancer that only brings death.

    I disagree with the cavalier attitude though. Grace is not just freedome from all of the O.T. law, it is a new kind of administration that one is to be governed by. If one is controlled by grace, then licence and legalism will not be present.

    Be careful about your fire. You don't want to burn so hot that you consume people. Legalists needs rebuke and patience also.
     
  13. timothy 1769

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    Tim im guessing your old because you must have trouble seeing. You took phrases out and used them to show things i never attended. You must of not read it. I think raising hands is good friend i said legalism is against any of that.

    Yes, I was agreeing with you on that one.

    And modesty for woman show me from the Bible men are suppose to wear 3 piece suits and dress like u ?

    If you’re in a congregation of people who wear 3 piece suits, you should swallow your pride and wear one too. It’s certainly no sin, and showing respect to God is a good thing. Worship isn’t about giving you an opportunity to display your individualistic fashion sense, especially when it can cause others to stumble.

    whats that oh wait it does not say that oh man there goes your legalistic ways out the window. And woman should dress modestly once again i am saying it is stupid yes stupid to make big deals about girls not having dresses go to ankles nothing inmodest about a girls arms showing to u should see how silly people got talking about the new teen Bible.

    If you’re right, then show love and concern for your weak brothers.

    Oh let me guess woman cant wear pants to because that is what ur 1611 says right?

    IMO women can’t wear pants in a culture where they are predominately considered men’s clothing, as God considers all who do so an abomination.

    oh and we must all sit in church with frowns on our face go to some baptist churches around the states and see for your self.

    I have, and I’ve never seen the kind of people you describe, perhaps because they’re ridiculous caricatures designed to help you make your point.

    They have no joy they have no love.

    You seem angry and hateful to me.

    They are quick to judge just like you tim.

    Do you not hear yourself?!?

    Wow imagine a world full of tims man would that ever be boring. We are different we are not some crazy cult timmy were we dress all the same. Your prefences are just that yours stop making them every one elses and stop making them out to be Gods message because its not.

    Perhaps you can help me out and let me know where I’ve done that.

    And go ahead attack billy graham lets see timmy who would God honor more Billy who has lead millions to Christ are timmy who has lead not even close to that to Christ. Oh but he doesnt do things like i would ohhhh nooo it must be wrong. Oh wait he wore a leather jacket once ohhh nooo that has to be against the Bible some where.

    We love and honor God by obeying him. Graham should know that.

    GROW UP LEGALIST ALL THE LEGALIST GROW UP YOUR CHOKING THE CHURCH AND IT MAKES ME UP SET. AND timmy Jesus got mad to so u think ur so wise to misquote and take words and twist them Jesus got mad for a rightous cause tell me Jesus was right for doing that wasnt He?

    Do you think any cause justifies all the wrath you can bring to bear? Especially when you don’t have all the information?

    Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    James 1:19-20 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

    and didnt Jesus reach out to those who no one else did like the poor and the ones who the overly relegious rejected?

    Mark 2:13-17 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them. And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    maybe im mistaken. But if we did that today if we tried to reach out to teens who are lost teens who dont look like us are talk like us oh man would we get complaints.

    If the church is rock solid in preaching and the gospel, practices church discipline, and doesn’t try to be a compromising fleshy entertainment center, I don’t see how reaching out to ANYBODY could cause problems. Verily, only the born again could stomach such a gathering. [​IMG]
     
  14. timothy 1769

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    Unfortunately today seriously attempting to do what the Bible commands earns one the title of legalist.

    Dr. Bob is a good example of a funny guy and a good moderator, God bless him.
     
  15. Salty

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    I am confunsed. Are you currently such a legalism church? If so, what is stopping you from moving your membership to a church that you feel more at home in.
    Or are you just complaining about legalism in general? Would you consider a Church of Christ to pratice leagalism when they have comminum ever week, would you consider it legalism when a Methodist minister wears a robe to preach in, would you consider it leagalism when an Episcopal church uses Candles during worship? It is so easy to say, "but the Bible does not tell you to do it" Well on the other had the Bible does NOT preclude you from any of the above stated actions.
    It sounds like you think unless every other church acts just the way you want it too, than it must be wrong. I would like to think that is one of the great things about being a Baptist, each local church can decide for itself its own standards.
    You mentioned that legalism dictates women must wear long dresses. Does that mean that it would be okay for a lady to attend church in a two piece swimming suit?
    Would Luke 6:21-23 apply here. I may have more to say a bit later.
     
  16. David Mark

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    Emphasis of legalism is on the commandments. Emphasis of grace is on the HIS. </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG]

    A message I often hear from scripture is that our trials are designed to strengthen us. Even when we struggle with modern legalists, God wants us to learn something.

    Through some of my trials I've learned that His commandments are truly not grievous. On the contrary, His commandments bring life, hope and peace.

    Edited to add:

    After making this reply I looked again at the passionate title of this thread. "Legalism kills and destroys the Church". I disagree fully and I say that the title of this thread is a faithless statement. There is nothing that can kill or destroy the Church. The opposite is true. Everything is designed to cause the church to grow.

    Dave.

    [ September 16, 2003, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: David Mark ]
     
  17. Ben W

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    I find it interesting that a lot of churches that are Legalistic are the ones that only survive on getting people to join them from other churches, they never seem to be getting anyone saved themselves.
     
  18. I Am Blessed 24

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    Dallas; Me thinks that you need to get your anger under control and practice some of the 'compassion of Jesus' that you are talking about.

    You are judging others, by your view, which is exactly what your thread is against.

    Please try to refrain from personal attacks and just attack the subject, not the poster. We all have opinions and are all entitled to state them. Let's try to do that in a Christ-like manner.

    Thanks,
    §ue
     
  19. Walls

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    Does he still have long hair and does he openly show his tattoos?
     
  20. Jimmy C

    Jimmy C
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    Ben,

    your comment was very astute. I think that is why so many on this board are threatened by Saddleback, willow creek et al. those churches are going out and meeting people where they are, and bringing them to Christ. so what if they dont look exactly right or know how to act.
     

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