Lessons in Colossians

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Mar 20, 2004.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    I am sure other people will add what they have learned by reading the Book of Colossians.

    The first one that I will elevate for our attention is that as to our salvation we are complete when we receive Christ as Savior. [John 1:12] In the second chapter of the Topic in verse 10 Paul says, 'And ye are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principalities and powers.' In all of the span of our Christian life we are not working our way to Heaven. Our eternal salvation [I John 5:11] because it is real will grow fruit or 'good works' [Ephesians 2:10]

    An error that was prevelent in the Church of Colossie was they believed in the intermediary of angels in their worship of Almighty God. So Paul says, 'Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels . . . '

    Dr. E. Earle, B.D., Ph.D is a lectureer and writer on the New Testament, who is currently engaged in research and writing in Germany, says,

    'The Colossian heresy combined Jewish and Hellenistic elements. Dietary and Sabbath observances, circumcision rites, and probably the mediatorial function of angels are reminiscent of Jewish pratice and belief (Col 2:11, 16, 18); the emphasis on "wisdom" and "knowledge," the {pleroma} of cosmos powers, and the abasement of the body reflect Greek thought [Col. 2:3, 8, 23]

    The New Testament affirms that Jesus alone is the adequate Mediator. I Timothy 2:5 indicates that ' . . . there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men {human beings} (namely) the man Christ Jesus.'

    Christians who are orthodox in faith do not pray to or through angels, saints, Mary or any humanly elevated prophet or rising saint.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Even OT saints did not pray to the dead. The practice is "error" in all ages.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    Angels are referenced in the Bible 273 times and are most often accounts of their activities.

    I get disturbed with the little cherubs with the faces of children that I see as ornaments in the home or outside of people's houses. Most often at Christian book stores they become statues with all feminine features, and at least to me, appear to be powerless. I think good angels get 'short changed' as to their apparent mighty power and strength to defend us.

    In Colossians we are warned not to worship angels nor to think they can be adored or to try to use them as mediators to reach the Presence of God. [Colossians 2:8]

    Hebrews 1:14 says that they 'are all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister to we who shall be the {eternal benefactors} or heirs of salvation.' {to we who are about to become heirs of salvation} At least to my estimation they are not delicate spiritual beings who surround the throne of God but are mighty in their power and influence on our behalf. My guess is they are at least the size of a man and in many cases taller and larger than the average man.

    Angels are created beings and derive their power and authority from Almighty God. Their power however great--is restricted, of course, by the Godhead, Himself.

    God can create, act without means, or search the human heart; angels cannot do this. Angels serve, as shown by the inclusive word all. They all serve the Lord God with some offering liturgical service in the Presence of God, and some who serve, watch and protect us. It seems that every 'born again-saved Christian' has an angel of guard and safekeeping. [Psalm 34:7]

    'The angel of the Lord encampeth round about those who fear Him, and delivereth them.' The Hebrew word, {chanah or khaw-naw-the same phonetic sound} suggests that the personal angel 'abides very near to us, camps next to us, pitches a tent next to us-(figuratively speaking-angels don't live in tents) or abides near us.

    What is your concept of angels?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Very large powerful beings - very intelligent - able to make themselves visible when they choose - and able to change shape/form to appear as we do if they choose.

    I believe that Abraham saw them walking with Christ. So also did Lot. But they saw them in "human form". Ezekiel saw them in their natural form.

    Fallen angels live here - and are demons. Satan is simply the king of the demons - he is the devil.

    When mankind was created - we were then slightly less in stature to what the Angels were in their natural form. Humans living beofore the flood were "giants" by comparison to mankind just a few centuries following the flood.

    Humans living before the flood - really lived for about 1000 years as the Bible says and really were "much larger" than we are today.

    The "giants" living at the time of Israel were in fact diminished versions - leftovers from pre-flood humanity that had not "diminished" in their generations as fast as the rest of the population of mankind.

    Angels are slightly larger than pre-flood man. They are very powerful and very intelligent and have the ability to change form, fly, become visible if they choose and they have the ability to insert thoughts/ideas into our heads (if allowed to) etc.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Bob Ryan,

    I read with interest your post. You had a lot of information in those brief sentences. Super long posts turn me off, at most times, because they can get to the point with less words.

    Don't you think many Christians have a diluted idea and to the ministry, power and means as to ministering to God and human beings?

    In the statues in the Roman Catholic Church St. Michael is stepping on the Devil.

    As a pastor in Martinsburg, Pennsylvania I had a woman in a beautiful nursing home that a couple of days before her passing, told me confidentially, that there were angels all around the foot and sides of her bed. I listened and told her that they must be very comforting to her. She saw them and was not on pain medications.

    Personally, I never have seen not even one angel. I can imagine that some Christians have been priviledged to see these heavenly, caring, and protective heavenly beings.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Well we know that prophets like Ezekiel saw them in natural form rather than human form -- as did John in Revelation 4. (Similar to Isaiah's view in Is 6).

    I have heard of other stories about people who said they had seen angels.

    (Keeping this short)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Bob Ryan,

    The passage in Revelation chapter four in particular intrigues me. Each of these 'four beasts' meaning four living creatures were around way back in Ezekiel's time. As you know in Ezekiel 1:5 {the likeness of a man} and in verse 10 speaks of the face of a man, lion, ox, and eagle. And again in Ezekiel 10:20-22 the prophet speaks of these same Cherubim.

    Notice in Revelation chapter four the Apostle John 688 years later sees the same Cherubim with the faces a lion, calf, a man, and a flying eagle. Ezekiel said it this way. ' . . . the face of a man, lion, ox, and eagle.'

    When the Triune God created these flying beings I do not know. Probably long before the creation of the earth. Either way these flying messengers of the Lord were not wasting their time on the worshiping or adoring the saints, other angels, [Colossians 2:18a] or the virgin mother of God. [Luke 1:46] Mary worshipped the Lord only ' . . . the God of her salvation' [vs.47] John says that they were saying forever, 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, Who was, and is, and is to come.'
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Indeed. There is no case in all of scripture where anyone (OT or NT) is praying to angels, or praying to Mary, or praying to dead relatives.

    All that was "introduced" by Catholicism.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    The high standing that we have as Christians is highlighted in Colossians 3:1-3.[I John 3:2] Not only are we risen with Christ but our 'life is hid with Christ in God.' Without painting with a broad brush, the Apostle Paul seems to be encouraging us that we are not going to fall in and out of grace, nor are we going to fall from His grace. Where carelessness is involved in a carnal Christian, [I Cor. 3:1] that person should not think they are going to get away with their favorite sin. Hebrews chapter twelve insures all Christians that we will be disciplined if we utterly fail in our 'fellowship' [I John 1:3] with the Lord God. The faltering child of God will still have a relationship to our Lord, but the 'comfort zone' in relation to Him will be non-existent. The word, 'fellowship' is mentioned four times as to the Christians relationship toward the members of the church and in relation toward the Lord in chapter one. While pleasing the Lord, ' . . . our joy will be full.' [vs. 4] In order for 'fellowship and joy' to continue requires confession of sins to the Lord God.

    Chapter three of Colossians verse 24 suggests that we must continue in faith and faithfulness, lest we lose our reward when we get to Heaven. [I Cor. 3:11-15 & Revelation 22:12] I believe I am right that in the Book of Colossians there is no threat of the loss of personal salvation, only an encouragement to follow and love Him more and more.

    This should be the mind-set of the genuine Christian and is another lesson that we can mine out of the quarry of His most precious Word of God.
     
  10. trying2understand

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    Ray, I'm amazed that you made no notice of Bob's statements about pre-flood giants.

    It's straight from the SDA handbook - Ellen White.

    Perhaps you don't wish to alienate a fellow Catholic basher by asking about his extrabiblical beliefs. [​IMG]

    Speaking of aliens, maybe Bob will share some SDA Ellen White information about outerspace beings. Was is Saturn or Jupiter that she astro-projected to?
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    tryingtounderstand,

    Some of Bob's remarks I understood and agreed with and some I did not fully understand the full orb of what he was saying.

    In my dissertation I touched on the verses in Genesis 6:1-7.

    Many theologians will agree with me where I said,

    'Even the daughters of men, as pointed out in Genesis 6:2 and verse four, had consummated sexual union with fallen angelic beings. God's Word says the women were fair and beautiful to look at from the standpoint of men and fallen angels. These new beings that replenished the earth were a kind of hybrid human being. Provocative theologians have called these quasi-human beings Nephilim. First, the writer of Genesis calls them the sons of God, a title referred to in Job 1:6 and also in 2:1. Apparently, at least during the time of Job, the angels had access to the Presence of God as did Satan. This goes without saying, that these happenings were within the sovereign permissive will of Almighty God . . . . To the spiritually astute, there is not a scintilla of evidence that the sons of God were not fallen angelic beings. These Nephelium were born to the daughters of men and became hybrid mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Partially, because of this horrendous sin-God said, 'I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast . . . ' [Genesis 6:7]

    The 'sons of God' are His angels. [Job 1:6 & 2:1]

    I am not necessarily recommending reading Ellen White's books, but I read one ages ago and did not find anything in that text that I disagreed with at that time. One book does not always reveal all error.

    Bob and I love all Catholics but just cannot agree with all the things that this religion teaches her people. My wife was a cradle-Catholic and has changed some of her ideas about our Christian faith.
     
  12. neal4christ

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    Cool. Two people must be really happy about this thread. The "Ray and Bob" thread! [​IMG]

    Maybe you guys should work on actually showing this. I have not seen it. Just a personal observation.

    In Christ,
    Neal

    P.S. I didn't read the thread, because as I scrolled down I just saw you and Bob. I happened to see the line I quoted because I using the new quick replay thingy, which I love!
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Neither. Only one planet in our solar system has life. (OR had you noticed yet??)

    Of course you probably have a hard time accepting the Word of God when it says God created the world in 6 days AND you have a hard time when it says humans used to live for almost 1000 years.

    Admit it. The Word of God is difficult for your views.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    The problem is that if you read enough of what she wrote - she is going to say something that is in support of a distinctive SDA doctrine with which you do not agree. She is also going to claim in some way that God approves of that doctrine in some way.

    There is a limit to how much you can show positive things about Ellen White while rejecting SDA doctrines because eventually you get to something that is SDA doctrine and is claimed by her to be promoted by God in some way.

    My recommendation is that non-SDAs start by assuming she is a false prophet. Deal with SDAs on their doctrine first. If that does not reach a satisfactory conclusion the exercise is ended.

    And that is in fact how SDA evangelism works. By looking first at the Bible basis for the doctrines themselves. If that does not hold up - there is no use in going on to anything Ellen White says as some kind of proof of something.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Ray brings up a good point - that some non-
    SDA scholars think that fallen angels had relations with women and gave birth to giants.

    Giants before the flood.

    However - the SDA view is that when Christ said "the Angels neither marry nor are given in Marriage" it is a statement about their ability to procreate EVEN with their OWN kind. (Or lack thereof).

    The Genesis 6 statement then is not about fallen angels - but about the people of God and the people of Cain. Those who chose to follow the ways of man vs those who followed God.

    Being unnequally yoked. Condemned in both OT and NT. A condition that corrupted their faith and brought on the destruction of the world by a flood.

    The giants of that age had more to do with living for 1000 years and being so close to the generation that ate from the Tree of Life (Adam and Eve) than it did some kind of procreation process with fallen angels.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. frozencell

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    Asking for the intercession of angels is not worshipping angels.

    I'm assuming this was a misquote on your part as it has nothing to do with angels.

    Actually, the "giants' you refer to, I think, are crossbred humans from when demons were copulating with human women. Their offspring were giants, and these are the giants that Joshua encountered at Canaan. That is why God wanted them annihilated; they were abominations of the devil that should never have been in the first place.

    As I said, it's a good thing that no one else is, either.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Frozencell,

    You suggested--- 'Actually, the "giants' you refer to, I think, are crossbred humans from when demons were copulating with human women. Their offspring were giants, and these are the giants that Joshua encountered at Canaan. That is why God wanted them annihilated; they were abominations of the devil that should never have been in the first place.'

    Ray is saying, 'I agree with you. 'The sons of God' in Genesis six were fallen, wicked angels that cohabited with women and produced this unique race of people.

    The Israelites seemed to have great concerns about these mighty men as recorded in Genesis 6:4, Numbers 13:33, Numbers 13:33, Deut. 2:11, 20; 3:11,13; Joshua 12:4, 13:12, 15:8, 17:15 and 18:16.

    In Deuteronomy 3:11 Og, King of Bashan was about eleven feet three inches tall, and required a bed-frame of iron. A cubit was generally considered to be from the length of the elbow to the middle digit. The width of the bed was four cubits wide or about five foot wide.

    The reason we say that the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6:2 were fallen angels is because of Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7. In this last reference God asks Job where was he when the Lord created the earth. But there were other beings that we present when the earth was created and they were His angels called, ' . . . the sons of God.'

    We need to remember that these giants were not just a fluke, but were a large body of human beings who brought fear to the Israelites.

    Some theologians think that Satan initiated this cohabitation between his angels and women to corrupt the purity of the human race. Our Savior could not have been born through a virgin who had any connection to 'the sons of God' {this race of giants} meaning these fallen angels who were under the control of the Evil one. This was one of the reasons for the destruction of humanity but the world-wide flood. Only the purity of the race was safeguarded by Noah and his Godly, family fleeing to the flat boat that we call the ark. Remember this family was righteous and saved the race from total annihilation.

    There are good angels and evil angels who roam our world. The Lord tells us that every Christian has a good angel at his or her side to protect us. Notice: Psalm 34:7. Evil angels/wicked beings under the Devil's control and mission are always at work to increase sin and violence in our cosmos.

    Thank the Lord we are on His side and that God the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts/souls.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The "giants" living at the time of Israel were in fact diminished versions - leftovers from pre-flood humanity that had not "diminished" in their generations as fast as the rest of the population of mankind.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    God never says he wants to destroy giants or that giants are an abomination.

    In Gen 6 it is clear - it is the wickedness of humans that causes destruction. It is all humans - and only humans are destroyed (besides animals).

    The giants of preflood time are - all humans. They are not children of angels.

    The people that lived for 1000 years - are all humans. They are not children of angels.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Bob, I checked with The Wycliffe Bible Commentary published by Moody Press and they use different scholars for each book of the Bible.

    The dominant and governing view of Genesis 6:1-7 is that angels did unite with women in those days as noted by Kyle M. Yates, Sr., Th.D., Ph.D. Professor of O.T. at Baylor University, Waco, Texas. I am almost 100% sure that this is a Baptist University.

    Also, a Meredith G. Kline, Th.M., Ph.D., Associate Professor of O.T. at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, has some interesting comments about Job 1:6 and 2:1.

    Keep in mind that God did not allow this phenomenon to continue without judgment. Peter declares in his second epistle in 2:3-5 that angels are already in Hell because of their wrong actions.

    Also, Almighty God knows of our vulnerability as human beings and His angels which fell from their lofty standing in the Presence of God. Job 4:18 says, 'Behold, he put no trust in His servants; and his angels he charged with folly.' {meaning foolishness}
     
  20. frozencell

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    Ray,

    Thank you for your educated contribution on this topic. It is very helpful and refreshing.

    There's hope for you yet!!! Just kidding. You're alright.
     

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