Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

I have explained this parable to you before. Your application doesn't fit the context, only your man-made doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible, including Ezek.18, is this so-called doctrine of "forgiveness revoked" taught.

 

Your avoidance of the Bible details in the text -- is noteworthy but will not suffice to make the text go away. The mere quote of it refutes your assumptions.

 

First, you didn't quote Ez.18. So I don't know what you are referring to.
Second, I have explained and refuted your explanation, on more than one occasion concerning Matthew 18. Thus for you to remain in ignorance of the truth of that parable is not in my hands it is in yours. I have done my work.

 

Ezek 18

4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, ...9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.
...

20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness,
commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.


25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

.... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

 

The mere quote of Matt 18 refutes OSAS

On the contrary - the mere quote of the text refutes OSAS -- because the one fully forgiven has his full forgiveness revoked. Then Christ speaking OUTSIDE the parable says to His own - who are fully forgiven - that His Father will do likewise to THEM if they do not out of the SAME spirit of gratitude illustrated in the parable - forgive others AS they have BEEN forgiven.


Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

 

It is called real life application of scripture. And yes, it is how one confirms if someone's interpretation of a passage is accurate. You have no problem when it comes to proof texting, your have mastered your style of debate in this, though it be very non-instructive to the student.

So why doesn't it work on you? It is because if you should give an honest answer to life application questions you know in your heart you would fail your own doctrines.

 

Speaking to those under the Old Covenant, addressing results of sinning against the Law, and receiving PHYSICAL DEATH, NOT spiritual death!

Cannot apply to those under the New Covenant now!

 

Only ONE Gospel in both OT and NT Gal 1:6-11 not TWO.

Heb 11 says OT saints saved by the Jer 31:31-33 NEW Covenant.

And Ezek 18 is NOT claiming that ALL the wicked in Israel have died or that all the righteous in Israel will never die physical death. At the time Ezekiel is writing Israel is under the judgment of God because the wicked were not all dead - they were in rebellion they were leading the nation and the mix of righteous and evil - existed all that time and for centuries. It will never be true that all the wicked have died and all the righteous do not die - until the 2nd coming.

Obviously.

Your are using a "Bible detail avoidance " strategy to defend man-made tradition and it simply does not work.

So then it turns out we DO have to take Christ seriously in Matt 18 instead of avoiding HIS teaching in blind services to the man-made tradition of OSAS.

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Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

The mere quote of the text refutes OSAS.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Certainly forgiveness is not "optional" for the saint. There is no such thing as an unforgiven saint.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Every time some Bible text comes up that you want to sidestep you ask for someone else to tell you what it means - so you can then divert the point to find fault with their statements as if the Bible text was not your issue.

Why keeping trying that game out?? Has it ever worked on me??

Certainly I' welcome the idea that you might actually embrace one of these Bible verses that you seem to find so offensive that in some cases you can't even bring yourself to quote them.

I welcome the idea that you might want to make a life application of these texts that you presumably would embrace instead of using "any ol excuse will do" ideas to get away from them.

The truth is - you are struggling with the sola scriptura response and so are trying to side step as if the Catholic approach of "tell me what to think" is the solution because then no matter what is said - the answer is not scripture and you are free to complain about it.

Hence the fact that your "give me something that is not scripture to complain about" idea is not taken up by one of my posts as if it is a good idea.

Hint: In Matt 18 Christ Himself makes the real life application - yet for you even the words of Christ Himself cannot budge you from clinging to a man-made tradition over the Bible.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


However this application should not be so foreign to the objective non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.

Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


in Christ,

Bob

 

He's got a point Bob, why would this only apply to not forgiving others? What about lying? If you lie after you are saved, do you lose salvation? What about stealing? If you take an extra two minutes at lunch break at work, that is stealing.

What about looking at a woman to lust after her? Jesus said that was sin.

I could go on and on.

Why is it you think only CERTAIN sins can cost a man salvation, such as not forgiving others? Wouldn't it make sense that ANY sin would cost a man salvation?

So please explain what sins are allowed and which are not and how many times you can commit these sins before it costs you salvation.

 

The consistent Bible principle is that you are not supposed to embrace rebellion against the Law of God (Christ calls the Ten Commandments the "Word of God" in Mark 7:13) as a Christian.

But if Matt 18 is true - then OSAS fails - no avoiding it.

In the Matt 18 case there is no "if you failed to forgive for two seconds but then freely forgive after 3 seconds" - it is not the delay but rather outright determined refusal. So while this utterly wipes out OSAS - it is consistent with the Bible model for forgiveness revoked and as you say any rebellion against God on any commandment - if you stick to it with determination will eventually destroy your walk with God. In general it is a bad path for a saint to try and follow.

And in that case the message of Christ to you will be that you have "fallen from Grace" you have "been severed FROM Christ" and so you are without the robe of Christ's righteousness. Miserable blind and naked - "I STAND at the door and Knock - if anyone hears My voice AND opens the door I will come in".

As for why the forgiveness revoked principle is so quick on this one - possibly because those who have experienced full forgiveness from God in theory cannot claim to be "ignorant of the experience" or "ignorant of the benefit" so when they do not forgive others they cannot claim they did not know about gratitude and "go and do thou likewise" motivation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It doesn't "wipe out OSAS" at all, you cannot tell us when a person loses salvation.

This is what I have ALWAYS discovered among those who believe as you do. They always imply that everyone else is in danger of losing their salvation, while they are completely secure in their own.

Yet they can never give you a definite answer on when a man has sinned too much or for too long.

And I am not saying this about you, but so far, everyone I have ever met that believes as you has been a complete hypocrite. They are almost always MORE SINFUL than those they judge.

I told you I worked with a fellow once that said folks in his church had not sinned for years. This guy used to take 10 extra minutes for lunch everyday but was oblivious to his own sin.

One day I got fed up and bet him he couldn't go 24 hours without sinning. He said, Oh that is easy! I can easily go 24 hours without sinning!

I said, Well, the scriptures say boasting is a sin and you just boasted. You have already blown it.

He got so red in the face I really thought he might hit me. He rarely talked to me after that.

My advice would be that if you think a person is able to lose salvation, then you should put all your attention into making sure you don't lose yours.

 

The mere quote of the text refutes OSAS. It is a tradition that does not survive the test of scripture.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

It does not matter if it is a year or ten years - the text says that forgiveness is revoked. OSAS does not survive that warning.

That is a non sequitur - you did not ask me if I thought every Christian but me needed to take these Bible warnings seriously.

And I never said that "Every Christian but me needs to take these Bible warnings seriously".

Not sure why you are off on that limb over there or what I said that got you to go there.

In any case your statement is not a sola scriptura test of anything you are just commenting on what you see as someone else's view of the text.

I am talking about the actual details in the text itself. OSAS does not survive them.

Furthermore accepting this Bible teaching only strengthens your own non-Cal position. It does not weaken it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well Bob, if I believed as you do, I would spend my every waking moment making sure I did not lose my own salvation. That would keep me too busy to worry about if others are keeping theirs.

 

Your exactly right :thumbsup: . I have experienced the same people, they preach the loss of salvation for everybody else but have no doubt they themselves are secure in Christ.

There is an elder in my church who does not believe OSAS, although he does not preach against it, he just doesn't believe in it. He will give some push back when it is presented, but otherwise doesn't rail against it like some. He and I have had many discussions on the topic, all with love, we are good friends.

Anyways, he was teaching our SS class couple weeks ago and the lesson was on God's faithfulness in His promises. He stressed that we should take comfort in that God is always interceding for us and always does what He promises to do, that we should NOT rely on our own righteousness but solely upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that it is not our efforts but the works of Jesus Christ on the cross, etc, etc. He hit many of the secure in Christ passages.

Afterwards I stopped him and said, that was a good teaching you gave us on OSAS. He said, what? no, I believe the scriptures in some areas point to some losing their salvation. I said, but that isn't what you told the class, you told us God will finish what He has begun in us, so take comfort, press towards the mark! He said again about some passages yada yada and I said, so you think YOU could really lose your salvation? And he said, oh no way, I know who may Saviour is and there is no way I will ever walk away from Jesus, but others could.

 

Again - that is not a sola scriptura test of anything.

What Catholic Priest could not put the Bible aside and say to Martin Luther when Luther said the Pope is not infallible and the traditions of the church are being found to be in error when tested sola scriptura -- "Well Martin if I believed as you do I would be afraid every moment that some new long held belief will be found to be in error - as it is tested sola scriptura".

It is a comment about a feeling - it is not a bible test of the doctrine or exegesis of anything. It is not a solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Can you honestly tell us Bob, that you feel the Spirit in your spirit witnessing that you could possibly lose your salvation?

 

Just sayin' Bob.

Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The scriptures say every man will have to give an account for his own self, if I believed as you I would spend every waking moment being concerned I did not lose my own salvation.

 

Yes, it is called real life application. It is called a relationship with Jesus Christ in Spirit joined with spirit. That creates within a feeling. Anything less is only a religion which cannot save.

 

More proof-texting!!
The son shall not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity.
You have avoided the context which is capital punishment or civil law.
It has nothing to do with spiritual death or salvation.

If a son has a wicked father, why should his father's wicked reputation and sinfulness fall upon the son? It wasn't his fault. The son shall not bear any punishment for his father's wrong-doings. He is innocent from them. Go and read the context. It has nothing to do with salvation or spiritual death. It is civil law speaking of capital punishment. You have misapplied Scripture.