Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

You bare false witness and you boast about keeping the commandments of God. You chop up a quote of mine to make it say what I did not say. This is the same method you use for making the scriptures say what they do not say. You are dishonest which reveals to us that you feel you must lie and twist in order that your views remain viable, at least in your own mind, you are not fooling others here.

 

And it goes unanswered.

Never mind quoting the entire parable again. We have that down by memory now. Answer in your own words. Think for yourself. Can you do that?

 

I continue to insist that Matt 18 and Matt 6 were written by God and not me.

I continue to insist that your tactic of avoiding the details of the Bible in Matt 18 and Matt 6 "as if that is working" - is not as compelling as you seem to have at first imagined.

I continue to insist that blaming me for what you read in the Bible "is not working" --

so ok - just the obvious.

======================== i have 3 questions for you --

Originally Posted by BobRyan


I am asking you to respond to the details IN the text.

1. First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

2. Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]



So yes that would be "Sola scriptura" testing of your man-made tradition if you can actually address "the Bible details".

So far I think we all agree that ducking them does not count as addressing them.

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

By contrast we have -- the actual Bible

Matt 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matt 18: [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

By contrast we have
Matt 18:[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]


Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

Ahhh yes - I quote the Bible with on-topic discussion - and Steaver just makes false accusation after false accusation in endless rant.

I will take the "Bible side" of that sad comparison every time.

Steaver I assume you are happy with your side.

We all have free will - so I am ok if you are.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Another lie to cover up the last lie. The false witness is against a quote of mine, not any bible quote you gave. You are deep in this now. repent and cut your losses.

You bare false witness and you boast about keeping the commandments of God. You chop up a quote of mine to make it say what I did not say. This is the same method you use for making the scriptures say what they do not say. You are dishonest which reveals to us that you feel you must lie and twist in order that your views remain viable, at least in your own mind, you are not fooling others here.

Is your salvation now lost until you ask for forgiveness from me and God??

 

Full quote from Steaver in context....

BobRyan's false witness of quote.....

And you boast of how you keep God's commandments??

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

By contrast we have -- the actual Bible

Matt 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matt 18: [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

By contrast we have
Matt 18:[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]


Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

Ahhh yes - I quote the Bible with on-topic discussion - and Steaver just makes false accusation after false accusation in endless rant.

I will take the "Bible side" of that sad comparison every time.

Steaver I assume you are happy with your side.

We all have free will - so I am ok if you are.

This is the part where you are supposed to do something besides rant and name call and falsely accuse.

This is the part where you would provide some sort of proof that you have not taken the positions in your quotes above.

I have no problem with those who make the case - who prove that something I said was incorrect - but you do not even try. So.. you have to do something other than make a long list of accusations.

I thought that was the obvious part. The concept is well known - well accepted.

Where is the confusion?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

This was the part where you were supposed to prove that OSAS concept - not merely "assume it".

Both Matt 18 and Matt 6 make the case and you cannot spin the Lord's prayer or Matt 18 into "does not apply to Christians so just ignore the text" -- I think you and I both know that.

Turns out - so does OSAS which is why almost everyone who believes in OSAS keeps saying "no such thing as forgiveness revoked".

How were we supposed to miss this key point???

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]


I thought you and I both agreed - no such thing as purgatory.. This is hell being the result when applied to those Christ is speaking to...

[FONT=&quot]handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

Christ applies that very detail to all of His followers OUTSIDE the parable.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

"To SAVE His people FROM their sins" -- ring a bell?

This is not the point where you were supposed to fall on your sword.

Who goes along with you that to die in your sins is - -- salvation???

No one so far.

Sadly for your argument "Full forgiveness" is not the state of the lost - but of the saved.

Even DHK admits that the Disciples were saved - fully forgiven.

How are you getting so confused on such a basic Gospel detail?

Acts 2 -- "Repent and be baptized for the ..." What???

"Forgiveness of sins".

How are you getting so lost on this detail?

No such thing as a fully forgiven lost person.

No such thing as a lost person who has experienced full forgiveness -- and God expects him to now forgive others as he in his still lost condition has really experienced full forgiveness.

And you and I both know it.

Jesus said that God does not expect good fruit from a bad tree.

You are tossing the Gospel and the teaching of Christ out the window in this any-old-excuse-will-do-to-save-OSAS path.

Why do that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

You consistently repeat this "fully forgiven" concept which is not cited in the passage. Can you show us where it states the servant was "fully forgiven"? You add that part to the scripture all by yourself. To be "fully forgiven" it would have to include a new heart displayed in the servant.

Matt12:31.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. As we can plainly see, ALL sin shall be forgiven - Jesus speaking of the atonement to come, and it shall be forgiven unto all men, not just those who believe on Jesus Christ. One exception. Unbelief, or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit's call to repent and believe upon Jesus Christ, shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do you see[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "I forgave you SOME of that debt - not ALL" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in the text??[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
No one here has made that case.

You may be the first to prove such a thing. Have a shot at it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. Nothing in Matt 18 or Matt 6 says "I forgave you all that debt except for one of your debts -- ".

2. Nothing in Matt 12 says that the lost are "forgiven almost all" in hell. The "forgiveness in hell" doctrine is not found in all of scripture. No such thing as a lost person with the blood of Christ covering all their sins but one. You are either covered by the blood of Christ or you are not. Matt 12 says nothing about the lost being forgiven with the blood of Christ covering their sins and still lost.

In fact Ezek 18 and Matt 18 are both specific that all former standing is lost and all former forgiveness is revoked for those in that condition.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As I said in my above post Never mind quoting the parable again.
I am not going to answer the questions again Bob. I answered them once. You treated my answer with contempt; mocking, and ridiculing it.
The Bible says not to throw your pearls before swine. I will obey "the commandments of God," and do exactly that. Therefore if you want my explanation you can find it by yourself and give it some thoughtful contemplation. I will not answer it again! So stop with the repetition of the questions.

I still note that you provide no thoughtful answer to the points and questions I have asked of you. The lame answers you give: "I didn't write the Bible, God did," is another way of saying "I don't know the answer."

The parable is about forgiveness. That is the truth.
You say that the parable is about "forgiveness revoked." There is no such doctrine taught in Scripture, and it is heresy.

Let's play this scenario out so you can see it as it relates to Scripture, and Scripture must harmonize with other Scripture.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Galatians 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation (hypocrisy).

It is evident that not only Peter had offended Paul, but had sinned and offended God Himself. There is no record of either Peter's forgiveness nor of
Barnabas' forgiveness for his hypocrisy in this event. If they did not ask forgiveness of Paul (and of God); then their initial forgiveness of God (according to you) was revoked and they are in hell today.
If their initial forgiveness cannot be revoked then you just proved eternal security. So which is it? Is Peter and Barnabas in Hell or in heaven? Which do you teach?
Suppose one of them had met an untimely death just after that scenario had taken place and had not time to reach Paul. Would they have been condemned forever to hell, then, according to your belief?

Is the acceptance of Paul's forgiveness and consequently God's forgiveness the only way for Peter and Barnabas to be "saved again"? (as if that were really possible).
Again I ask you: Are you not teaching that one must be born again and again and again, something that the Bible doesn't teach.
Are you not making "forgiveness" now a condition of salvation?

Never mind your questions that I will not answer, because I have already explained them. You need to answer all the questions I just asked of you. These are the important questions that arise out of your strange doctrine that do not fit with the rest of the Bible. When it doesn't fit, you know it is wrong. Parables don't teach doctrine.

 

Yeah I see "all THAT debt", I don't see your "fully forgiven" anywhere.

Do you see "all manner of sin" and "all men" in this text.....

Matt12:31.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. As we can plainly see, ALL sin shall be forgiven - Jesus speaking of the atonement to come, and it shall be forgiven unto all men, not just those who believe on Jesus Christ. One exception. Unbelief, or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit's call to repent and believe upon Jesus Christ, shall not be forgiven unto men

 

Your entire solution is to duck the details that OSAS needs to be avoided.

You never addressed these 3 details..

I continue to insist that Matt 18 and Matt 6 were written by God and not me.

I continue to insist that your tactic of avoiding the details of the Bible in Matt 18 and Matt 6 "as if that is working" - is not as compelling as you seem to have at first imagined.

I continue to insist that blaming me for what you read in the Bible "is not working" --

so ok - just the obvious.

======================== i have 3 questions for you --

Originally Posted by BobRyan


I am asking you to respond to the details IN the text.

1. First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

2. Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]



So yes that would be "Sola scriptura" testing of your man-made tradition if you can actually address "the Bible details".

So far I think we all agree that ducking them does not count as addressing them.

Well then I have good news for you - you have not answered them and you are still not doing it - in creative post after creative post.

Were we simply "Not supposed to notice"???

I am glad to see that there is another detail you are willing to admit to -

Sadly to make that case you would need to address the 3 questions and stay focused on the details they are exposing in the text.

And of course you have already given your "solution" regarding that request.

Nothing in Gal 2 says that Peter ever said anything negative to Paul -- so you make it up.

OSAS (like calvinism) only survives in "invention and inference" as you seem to be doing it in your post above.

Paul has not offended Peter in Gal 2 and Peter has said nothing negative about Paul in Gal 2 nor has Peter claimed that Paul has offended him.

So... you make it up in service to OSAS -- why do that?

According to "ME"?

I wrote Matt 18??

Really??

I wrote Matt 6 ??/

Really?

No wonder you do not want those texts quoted in response to this twist trying to get ME to be the source of the statements in Matt 18, and Matt 6.

Well crafted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Where else do we find the statement from Jesus concerning "ALL DEBT/SIN" ?

Matt12:31.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Does this include the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

What does Jesus say?

...but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

All Debt meaning All Debt EXCEPT One. Scripture interpreting Scripture. You have been proven wrong! Your "Fully Forgiven" interpretation does not pass the scrutiny of other Scripture which states the exact same thing about All sin being forgiven.

 

I have ducked nothing and answered everything.
Your problem is that you don't like my answers.
Your second problem is that you avoid details and don't answer the question that are posed to you.

They have been addressed. You can find the answers if you so desire. I am not going to address them again as I have so stated. Your flippant answer and mocking of Scripture I will not tolerate, so I refuse to answer your questions a second time no matter how many times you post them. Search the threads if you want those answers.

How profound!!
That does not give you a pass to heaven, nor does it give you a get-out-of-jail free card, when it comes to answering the questions asked of others. People can see through that ploy.

I have answered them all. I am not answering them again. You have an attitude problem.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not work. It does not harmonize with the rest of Scripture, as I have shown you many times, and as Steaver has shown you.

Asked and answered. Look for it. I am not answering it again.
Why do you want answers you do not want to hear?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Asked and answered.
Why do you want answers you do not want to hear?
If you want the answer search for it.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Asked and answered.
Why do you want answers you do not want to hear?

I teach the Scriptures; you teach heresy. Now what did you say about "tradition"?

Yes, most of the board will agree who is ducking the questions. Ask them.

Whether you call it creative or not is not relative. My questions arise out of Scripture. Answers like this demonstrate your inability to answer Scripture.

They have already been answered. It is time to move on.

I have given you all the answers you need. Your basic need is repentance.

Read the account again. Paul rebuked Peter ("withstood him to the face").
There was no apology forthcoming from Peter; no "I am sorry," no, "I ask your forgiveness for my wrongdoing." Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles would expect that from the hypocrisy of Peter, wouldn't he? Peter had offended him by his actions.
What did Peter ask Jesus?
How many times shall I forgive my brother, Lord, seven times?
But the forgiveness is not recorded here, is it?

That lame statement is only a statement by one who doesn't like to discuss the Word of God.

No, Peter offended Paul by his actions. Peter needs to ask Paul for forgiveness because Peter acted in hypocrisy and offended his brother, something Jesus taught him that he should do "seventy times seven" in a day. Peter was rebuked by Paul.
Or are you saying Paul was wrong by rebuking Peter because Peter offended him, and simply just should have forgiven him. I don't think so.

I didn't make anything up. I am not defending any doctrine. You can't see that yet. I am showing you how your doctrine is false and does not fit with the rest of Scripture. It actually condemns the apostles.

I have answered them. You can find the answers. I am not going to answer them again. You have an attitude problem.
Why do you want me to post answers you don't want to hear?