Let's Discuss I Thess 1:4-5

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

Darren

 

That is fine but you have made absolutely no case.

 

That's fine. Maybe someone will get something from it.

 

Tom, I promise you I'm not in the least angry. Could you/would you rephrase or ask your question again? Maybe I'll get it this time.

Larry.

 

Hello Hank,

Actually this has nothing to do with me being PB or my view on the Great Commission. I believe the 'power of the HS' referred to in the passage of the OP is referring to [copied & edited from a previous post on another thread]
'the gift of the Holy Ghost, i.e. the baptism of the Spirit, the clothing with power from on high, the sending of the comforter, which came on the Day of Pentecost, which was a gift to the infant church which enabled it to grow and spread and to conduct it's warfare “against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” This ministration of the Spirit was the ONLY reason that the gates of hell did not prevail against the church.'

I also believe that once this special minstration of the Spirit was no longer needed (when the Lord saw fit), it ceased. The flack I'm getting on this really surprises me because I was taught this as a SB, not PB!

 

The bible is very clear all over the place that God does the choosing. If God draws everyone, then no one would ever be referred to as God's elect. :smilewinkgrin:

 

But since God is not divided, then one group is wrong and the other right. The belief that man is righteous enough to choose God is not only unbiblical but is called self-righteousness which is the yeast of the Pharisees. So as 1 Corinthians 11:19, the reason for divisions between Christians is; "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you has God's approval."

 

So, is the power something that was demonstrated by some unique means in the preaching of Paul or is the power demonstrated in the result that occurred in the lives of the Thessalonians? I think it is the latter. For Paul says that his "gospel came to them not in word only, but in power". There are several mentions of how power was manifested in chapters 1 and 2. The Thessalonians "became imitators of Paul and of the Lord". How? They suffered much affliction as Paul had and as Jesus did. And they did this with the "joy of the Holy Spirit". This change in their life was so stark that they became a testimony to believers in nearby cities and even beyond. Other believers reported the great change in the Thessalonian's lives; how that they "turned to God from idols--waited for the Son from heaven--and served the living and true God".

In summary, the fact of their election is seen through the radical change that the gospel brought about in their lives. As humans, we cannot know who is elect and who is not. Only God knows. Yet, those who are elect demonstrate it in some way by a change in their life. For the Thessalonian believers, the change was radical and undeniable.

 

So now, having said that, let me address Tom's questions:

Since I view the manifestation of power as the change that occurred in the lives of the Thessalonians, I would say, yes, the gospel, when it is believed, always changes the life of the one who believes.

I don't think so. This comment seems to assume that the power is some miraculous sign or some spiritual sign. The preaching of the gospel is always sufficient to save a person who hears and believes. This power is inseperable from the gospel and is not an addendum to it.

This question assumes that there is some circumstance in which the gospel is unable to save a person who hears it. I can't think of a biblical statement or scenario that would demonstrate such a proposition.

No. But, again, I cannot conceive of a scenario in which the gospel would be preached, yet be powerless to save the one who hears it and believes it.



Again, the power manisfested, of which Paul speaks, seems to be the power of the gospel to radically change the lives of the Thessalonians. This is what I derive from the context. It is not clear that Paul is referring to something miraculous or unusual that accompanied the preaching of the gospel as an addendum to the gospel that demonstrated power.

 

To say the obvious, both groups think they are right and since there is no actual scripture to settle it, the proponents for each view will continue to support their view with the scriptures they use to support their view.. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

One thought does not lead to the other. Is God's elect only those who are drawn or those who are chosen? Think about it.

 

Thanks kyredneck and it's not a problem with me.

I seem to remember that Primitive Baptists just don't call the method by which they share the Word of God "missions".

I believe the crux of the matter has to do with mission boards which to them seems to far removed from the local church to be something they can endorse.

As I said I am relying on my memory, perhaps a PB member can enlighten me.

There was a time when I was very interested in the Primitive Baptists and looked for a church to visit but couldn't find one within a hundred miles or so.

HankD

 

It's funny sometimes to hear the varying opinions of the same sermon after the church service (when we all got out to eat like good Baptists do). Comments like, 'that was the best sermon I've heard in a long time', to 'I didn't get much from that'.

 

The problem with your comment is that there is scripture that clearly contradicts it.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus himself said he would draw all men to him. But not all that are drawn or called will be chosen.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Not everybody whom God calls will respond positively and believe. Only those who believe by faith are chosen or elected.

Calvinists get election backwards. You are not elected to believe, you believe to be elected. We don't elect the President and then vote for him, we vote for him and then he is elected. You must always meet a condition to be elected.

 

Ultimately, everything that is done is God's doing in some sense. If it were not God's will in any sense, it would not occur. However, evil things that occur, while part of God's sovereign plan, are not his will; that is, they are not his moral will.

So when the gospel is preached and people do not respond with faith, is this because God does not empower the gospel to save those particular people? It seems that you are arguing for that, please correct me if I am wrong. I think you have to read alot into this passage to come to that conclusion. I can see how this passage raises the question that you are asking, but I do not see how this passage answers your question clearly or even indirectly. In that case, we have to find a passage in which people hear the gospel and reject it and we have to derive from the passage that clearly addresses the issue what the answer to your question is.

Am I on the wrong track? Am I completely misreading what you are saying? Please correct me if I am because it is not my intention to read something into your question that you do not intend to be there.

 

The gospel still carries power. Some still receive it with joy, and some reject it in hatred and anger like this video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f7_1179211068

 

The glory of GOd was on that pastor. How holy it was to see him praising God after he was beaten.