Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    When people are confronted with Calvinistic teaching their first and most difficult objection is typically something like this:

    "How can God rightly condemn mankind with eternity in hell for not fulfilling a requirement that they are not even given the ability to fulfill?"

    This is an objection to "Total Depravity." The belief that mankind does not have the ability to respond positively to the call of gospel message.

    I'm interested to discuss, in a civil manner, with Calvinists on this board how they biblically respond to this objection and defend this view of Total inability.

    I've read through the story of the fall, and many NT passages dealing with the results of the fall and I'm not able to find a verse that clearly teaches that mankind loses the ability to respond positively to God's message of reconciliation. Don't get me wrong. I affirm the doctrine of original sin, in that we are all born "fallen" and thus in need of a savior...I just take issue with the idea that the message God sent for the purpose of reconciling the world to himself is somehow insufficient to envoke a positive reply.

    Calvinists often turn to Rom 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

    I agree that we are born in a sinful state that is hostile to God's law and that as long as we remain under the control of that sin nature we cannot please God...in that we cannot ever complete the demands of the law (as this verse states). But does that say anything about the ability of a lost man to hear, believe and repent when confronted with the powerful Spirit wrought gospel? No. It only speaks of man's nature if left to himself. It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation.

    Are there any passages that do address this clearly?
     
  2. mandym

    mandym
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    I see this as a bad argument. It goes to the so called "fairness doctrine" which is weak at best. This is where "reason" gets misused because of presuppositions. The fact is that God withholds grace from some is imposed on scripture and cannot under any circumstances be supported except with similar weak arguments given in the op. It just is not there. Like the previous argument it is also where "reason' gets misused because of presuppositions.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Skan,

    Men are not born with a clean slate, yet they are responsible to God to keep God's law perfectly. The fall has made that impossible.
    First we look at the God given revelation in what God said to our representative head...the first Adam. Dying thou shalt surely die. He died,and us in Him .
    If this was the end of all revelation we would all die and go to hell justly as all sin must be punished.
    We need to keep in mind the Holy God we have sinned against and His revelation that each and every sin must be punished.

    God gave the terms to Adam.....he failed bringing sin and death. It was Adams failure that leaves us totally depraved,and bound in Sin.

    Romans 5 thankfully addresses this issue in giving us God's remedy...the last Adam.... and in the words of 1cor 15;
    the promise of believers being restored image bearers because of our federal head....The Lord Jesus Christ...is God's answer to this objection.


    Jeremiah 10:23
    O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

    the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

    33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

    34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

    35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


    5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    10I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings


    11Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
    6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    4The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
    6He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
    7His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

    8He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

    9He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.

    10He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.

    it. 11He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see

    12Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.

    13Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.


    14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Dec 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2011
  4. Skandelon

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    Yet, Calvinists claim that is the very argument Paul is attempting to address in Romans 9, so regardless if you think it is "weak" or not doesn't change the merits of the argument...it only gives undue cause to dismiss and redirect (a common fallacy of debate).
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Not since Paul introduced a "Righteousness apart from the law." See, this is the problem Calvinists continue to make. Calvinists use passages talking about the law of righteousness (i.e. no one can be righteous by the law) and apply it to Righteousness by faith (i.e. no one can have faith because that would make them righteousness according to the law). It doesn't follow. Proving that men are born unable to become righteous by law is NOT proof that men are born unable to become righteous by faith.


    Everything else you say in your post is based on this faulty premise. Can you show me one verse which equates the 'law of righteousness' with 'righteousness by faith?'

    Before you answer, read again Romans 3:20-21:

    20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
    21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.


    You seem to want to equate the inability to be declared righteous by observing the law that Paul speaks of in verse 20 with the view of righteousness by faith which is apart from the law in verse 21ff. How can that be? Where does Paul equate the two?
     
  6. mandym

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    then make them prove their claim rather than giving them ground with what is a factually weak argument. It is weak because it cannot be supported by scripture either. Both sides of the isle want to take on arguments based on man's reasoning rather than what scripture actually says.
     
  7. percho

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    My belief. Adam and all that have come and will come after him will receive the appointment once made, "death" because Adam sinned. Adam brought death to all men. Jesus the seed of Abraham, the seed of David, the only begotten of God by woman, was sinless. He did not commit one sin. Yet he died.

    I say he died in Adam.

    My question. Did the death of the sinless one, Jesus of Nazareth, satisfy God for all the sins that have been and will be committed by man?


    From your OP.
    "How can God rightly condemn mankind with eternity in hell for not fulfilling a requirement that they are not even given the ability to fulfill?"

    When Adam sinned all mankind was condemned. Dying thou dost die means that in bold.

    The override is in the sinless one who died. God the Father raised his son in the flesh who had died the very death above from the dead and the only hope for anyone else is to be raised from the dead just as Jesus his son has been raised. It's called the gift of God, eternal life and it can come and will come because Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross.
    Jesus was raised from the dead and given eternal life and our life is only in that fact.

    By the grace of God through the faith of Christ can you be given the gift of God.
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Mandym, I'm not attempting to be rude, but this doesn't make any sense. How is my argument against Calvinism's weak simply because I acknowledge their argument?

    Which was MY argument against their claims to begin with... the one you called "weak" :confused:

    If I am arguing against man's reasoning (i.e. Calvinism) based upon what scripture says or doesn't say, how is that "weak" or any different than what you are saying?
     
  9. convicted1

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    Well, "T.D." and "O.S." can not be divorced from one another. These are the "lynchpins" in RCC theology.


    OS has mankind annihilated from conception, before even drawing their first breath. TD has man born in a fallen condition, because of Adam's sin. Either way, mankind is guilty of another man's evil doings.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Skan,

    Christ is the end of the law....for righteousness...to everyone who believes...

    It is His active obedience that is put to our account....through faith. We are saved by law keeping.....Jesus kept the law for those who believe...because they cannot...no man can.......jn 6:44

    We had no approach....we all were unclean....
    The depravity is total...but not absolute.
    it is total because as we look through scripture we see men are affected
    spiritually, mentally, emotionally, morally,physically......
    it is not absolute in that man as an image-bearer,{although fallen} still because of conscience has some vestigages of the moral law working in Him.

    here is some information from the Baptist Cathechism with Commentary;



     
  11. Iconoclast

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    here is another way of answering this;
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    here is AWPink on it....
    http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Depravity/deprave_07.htm

    How weighty and full the testimony of Scripture is on this solemn feature: "When they knew God [traditionally], they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Rom. 1:21-22). That reference is to the Gentiles after the flood. One of the fearful curses executed on Israel, because they did not listen to the voice of the Lord their God and refused to do His commandments, was "The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: and thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness" (Deut. 28:28-29). Of all mankind it is said, "There is none that understandeth. The way of peace have they not known" (Rom. 3:11, 17). "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov. 14:12). "The world by wisdom knew not God" (I Cor. 1:21). Despite all their schools, they were ignorant of Him, "desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (I Tim. 1:7), "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).


    The spiritual blindness in the mind of the natural man not only disables him to make the first discovery of the things of God; even when they are published and set before his eyes, as in the Word of truth, he cannot discern them. Whatever notions he may form of them are dissonant to their nature, and the thoughts he has of them are the very reverse of what they actually are. They regard the highest wisdom as foolishness, and despise and reject glorious things. "Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you" (Acts 13:41). The preceding verses show that Paul clearly preached Christ and His gospel, and then cautioned his hearers to escape the doom spoken of by the prophet. It is not the bare presentation of the truth which will convince men. Though clearly propounded, it may still be obscure to them: "It is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not" (II Cor. 4:3-4). Their understandings need to be divinely opened in order to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:45).


    The natural center of unfallen man’s soul for both its rest and delight was the One who gave him being. Therefore David said, "Return unto thy rest, O my soul" (Ps. 116:7). But sin has caused men to "draw back" from Him, "departing from the living God" (Heb. 10:38; 3:12). God was not only to be the delightful portion of the one whom He had made in His image, but also the ultimate end of all man’s motives and actions as he aimed to glorify and please Him in all things. But man forsook "the fountain of living waters" (Jer. 2:13), the infinite and perpetual spring of comfort and joy. And now the inclinations and lusts of man’s nature are wholly removed from God, anything and everything being more agreeable to him than He who is the sum of all excellence. Man makes the things of time and sense his chief good, and the pleasing of himself his supreme end. That is why his affections are termed "ungodly lusts" (Jude 18)—they turn man away from God. Man has no relish for His holiness, no desire for fellowship with Him, no wish to retain Him in his thoughts.


    Note how that terrible list of things which Christ enumerated as issuing from the heart of fallen man is headed with "evil thoughts" (Matt. 15:19). We cannot conceive of any inclination or proneness to sin in an absolutely holy being. Certainly there was none in the Lord Jesus: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (John 14:30). There was nothing in Christ that was capable of responding to Satan’s vile solicitations, no movement of His appetites or affections of which he could take advantage. Christ was inclined only to what is good.

    "For when we were in the flesh [i.e., while Christians were in their unregenerate state], the motions of sins [literally, the affections of sin, or the beginnings of our passions], which were [aggravated] by the law, did work in our members [the faculties of the soul as well as of the body] to bring forth fruit unto death" (Rom. 7:5). Those "affections of sin" are the filthy streams which issue from the polluted fountain of our hearts. They are the first stirrings of our fallen nature which precede the overt acts of transgression. They are the unlawful movements of our desire prior to the studied and deliberate thoughts of the mind after sin. "But sin [indwelling corruption], taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence" or "evil lustings" (Rom. 7:8). Note that word "wrought in me": there was a polluted disposition or evil propensity at work, distinct from the deeds which it produced. Indwelling sin is a powerful principle, constantly exercising a bad influence, stimulating unholy affections, stirring to avarice, enmity, malice and countless other evils.

    If there is one faculty of man’s soul which might be thought to have retained the original image of God on it, it is surely the conscience. Such a view has indeed been widely held. Not a few of the most renowned philosophers and moralists have contended that conscience is nothing less than the divine voice itself speaking in the innermost part of our being. Without minimizing the great importance and value of this internal monitor, either in its office or in its operations, it must be emphatically declared that such theorists err, that even this faculty has not escaped from the common ruin of our entire beings. This is evident from the plain teaching of God’s Word. Scripture speaks of a "weak conscience" (I Cor. 8:12), of men "having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:2)— It says that their "conscience is defiled" (Titus 1:15), that they have "an evil conscience" (Heb. 10:22)— Let us examine the point more closely.

    Here, then, are the ramifications of human depravity. The fall has blinded man s mind, hardened his heart, disordered his affections, corrupted his conscience, disabled his will, so that there is "no soundness" in him (Isa. 1:6), "no good thing" in him (Rom. 7:18).
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Jan 1, 2012
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  13. convicted1

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    In the link, I noted at least three people(Goodwin, Brine, and Gill) that AW Pink cited. Now, any of us can post links that will support our beliefs. I ask this in much humility, and not in heat. Please stick with scripture and not someone's opinion, please?
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    Willis,

    You often object to these links...if you notice...the links are loaded with scriptures. I believe these links are irrefutable because they are solidly grounded in scripture.

    I recommend you read the whole work...line by line...look up the verses offered.....let me know where you see error if you feel you can Willis.

    Like here....show me where this is not correct....
    Willis....looks like enough scripture to make the case.....all dead in Adam do this...looks like total depravity to me. I do not think this can be refuted. I cannot improve upon it...so I post it for the benefit of others who want to learn.

    It comes from here;
    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/18626506

    I have often recommended that everyone buy a copy of this...it is loaded with scripture,Christ centered, with much teaching in it.
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Jan 1, 2012
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  15. convicted1

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    Brother, like I stated, any of us can "dig" and find someone who will support our beliefs. I am not being contrary, but let us use the Word only, okay? Yes, those links have ample amounts of scriptures in them, with the DoGs spin to them. I can find a link that will support my beliefs with scriptures that have their "spin" on them, too.
     
  16. convicted1

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    PLEASE Brother, do not think that I am being spiteful, for that's not my intent whatsoever. It's just that we need to go by what sayeth the Lord, and not what sayeth Pink, Clarke, Bunyan, Calvin, Luther, Augustine, etc.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Willis...it is not a matter of spite..it is a matter of not despising God given teachers......I guarantee you cannot post any link that will refute these verses offered.

    You say this as if any of these men were just speaking out of their butt. Willis....they are opening the scripture...not offering opinion that they made up....they are saying scripture says this......
    if you think they are in error...show where or how they mis-use any of these verses.
    You claim that you want just saith the Lord.....they offer it ...Pink quotes hundreds of scriptures...he even explains romans 7.....

    The idea of offering a link is that it is to be examined. If you post any link that contradicts God's grace in salvation...I will do my best to point out it's errors. Give it your best shot Willis.....Did you even read the links???
     
    #17 Iconoclast, Jan 1, 2012
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  18. Benjamin

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    Yet, you are posting multiple fallicious "(*) appealing to authority" responses in order to create a smokescreen and use it to disrupt a debate. Not in spite though...:rolleyes:

    And of course these men's words are not mere opinions....riiiight. See (*)
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    .....Did you even read the links???

    That would require someone to open up their minds to something not their reality......heaven forbid.
     
    #19 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 1, 2012
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  20. Aaron

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    Describe the power to which you are alluding. What does it do, specifically?
     

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