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Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Willis...you night owl:laugh:
    Condemnation is being outside of Christ ..in the realm of death
    Sin brings condemnation and death.
    :thumbs: I know we can agree here Willis!

    We are saved from our sins....the reigning power of sin is broken when we are saved.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Here's some Total Depravity for You.

    If you want some Total Depravity in the Bible, try this, especially verses 5-6. You might consider verse 9 as well.

    Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
    For the Lord has spoken: "
    I have nourished and brought up children,
    And they have rebelled against Me;
    3 The ox knows its owner
    And the donkey its master's crib;
    But Israel does not know,
    My people do not consider."
    4 Alas, sinful nation,
    A people laden with iniquity,
    A brood of evildoers,
    Children who are corrupters!
    They have forsaken the Lord,
    They have provoked to anger
    The Holy One of Israel,
    They have turned away backward.
    5 Why should you be stricken again?
    You will revolt more and more.
    The whole head is sick,
    And the whole heart faints.
    6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
    There is no soundness in it,
    But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
    They have not been closed or bound up,
    Or soothed with ointment.

    Isaiah 1:2-6 (NKJV)

    Steve
     
  3. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Those who've had a genuine confrontation with God reckon their depravity to be in totality.

    Consider Isaiah. There are many more in such a prostrate position at the sight of Almighty God.

    Look also at the Pharisees who couldn't see their own depravity.

    Revealed in these two examples we see a Calvinist and a non-cal respectively, each depicting his own theology concerning the state of man. One may argue that Isaiah was saved, which would further indict the non-cals theology as in error, for he, in his saved state saw truth.

    Romans 3 is accepted as reflective of all of mankind by the Calvinist. By the non-cal? Not so much.

    But carry on now and defend man in his fallen state as being "OK." Afterall, such is the state Satan did desire for man to consider himself in from the garden until now, in this; "You shall be as gods..." In such a predicament are some men still, believing their bound will to be free, being self-deceived. Such a person can never see his own, nor others state of being totally depraved in the sight of God. Afterall, they're looking through the wrong lens to begin with.

    - Peace
     
    #43 preacher4truth, Jan 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2012
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I love the way you ask questions. :laugh: Very entertaining...and I'm not being sarcastic, you really are one of the few people hear who makes me laugh at loud.

    Now, to your question about a "barrier." That is a great question.

    Those with "religious baggage" (such as the Jews at that time) would have a serious barrier. As Jesus explained, "First they wouldn't believe, then they couldn't - again, just as Isaiah said: 40 Their eyes are blinded, their hearts are hardened, So that they wouldn't see with their eyes and perceive with their hearts, And turn to me, God, so I could heal them." -Jn 12

    Years (generations) of rebellion causes one to grow hardened and that would be a barrier, but in contrast to the Jews, "the Gentile will listen." (Acts 28:28)

    So, while the Jews of that day were being blinded in their already rebellious condition, that doesn't mean every man is born in that same condition. Scripture warns not to allow our hearts to grow hardened for this very reason. Eventually God will "give you over to your defiled heart." (ref. Rom 1)

    The gospel (which IS the Word) has the power to inform people of truth, but if ones heart has grown calloused and God has sent them a spirit of stupor so they can't see, hear, understand lest they repent then that would be a truly insurmountable barrier. I just don't believe scripture EVER teaches that barrier is place on all mankind from birth, as you do.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    That doesn't answer the question regarding why the unbelievers that Paul is speaking of in Romans 1 would be without excuse.



    And there is the perfect excuse.

    God: Why didn't you submit?
    Man: I could not.

    There is no better excuse.

    Instead the bible says, "Humble yourselves and you will be exalted." I suppose he meant to say, "God will humble you so as to exalt you?"
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Not true. We just affirm the power of the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel truth sent to bring reconciliation. You all think the power rests in a so called "irresistible calling" which is never expounded upon in the text.
     
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Even Arminians affirm that God has used effectually persuasive means (blinding lights or big fish) to convince his preselected ordained messengers to take their message to the world. This is what sets them apart as uniquely authoritative after all. But, please understand; proof God has used outward means to persuade the wills of his divinely appointed messengers is not proof that God inwardly, secretly, and irresistibly changes the will of preselected individuals who hear their message. Make sense?
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So it's the latter. Men possess the ability to believe the Gospel and respond by nature. The Spirit does not endow them with anything extra. They were simply ignorant of the Gospel in the same way that one might not have known about System Restore in Windows. They were given some directions, and, on their own, they either believed or not.

    Now to the next one. The power to respond. Describe that one if you will.
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Isn't that what you believe, Aaron? The only caveat being that you believe the nature is one determined by God in such a way that the agents decisions could not have been other than what God predetermined them to be....for the non-elect the nature determines a negative answer and for the elect the nature determines the positive one?

    I believe man's nature is that of a free moral creature, that while made enemies by the fall may be reconciled when confronted by God's message sent for that purpose. While enslaved, may be set free by truth which is said to "set me free." While dead in trespasses may be brought to life by the powerful life giving truth.

    John 20:31:
    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.



    No, the gospel is the means the Holy Spirit works to inform and draw men to himself. How many times do I need to explain this Aaron? The gospel is powerful because they are WORDS uniquely inspired OF GOD, unlike other books and words which were not uniquely brought about by a direct and active work of God. This goes back to our discussion about the inspiration of scripture. You believe everything is equally under God's control making nothing really uniquely of God because in your system it is all OF GOD. In my system, the gospel is powerful because of its author, a uniquely divine truth which is powerful!

    "The GOSPEL is the POWER OF GOD unto SALVATION..." - Paul

    "The words I speak to you are spirit and life." - Jesus

    "You will be judged by the words I have spoken to you." -Jesus

    I assume you are talking about my statement: "To inform men of the truth and empower them to be reconciled to God."

    The means of power to respond to God is the gospel. Jesus was the WORD, the gospel. Anything the gospel accomplishes IS GOD's DOING. Any resistance to the Gospel is man's doing. Resistance is not due to a lack of power of the gospel as if its just not clear enough or effective enough for them because God doesn't really love them. They reject it despite its sufficiency to save which is why they are held to account and stand without excuse.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #50 Iconoclast, Jan 2, 2012
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  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't Paul!

    Genesis 15:6
    And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You keep getting ahead of yourself Skandelon. The above statement is patently false. Before regeneration the elect is under the wrath of God. Please note the Apostle Paul:

    Ephesians 2:1-10, NASB
    1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and
    were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
    7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
    10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
     
  13. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    What you are arguing against here is the inability of man in both keeping the Law and his inability to believe, Biblical doctrines espoused by Calvinists, and are arguing for man’s ability against this. This is nothing new, as most non-cals argue for this state of man, and argue for his glory and abilities.

    Some other comments. First, Paul didn't introduce this "righteousness apart from the Law." It was introduced by God Himself long before Romans had been written. Righteousness has always been apart from the Law and has always been by grace. Note Genesis 12-15. Re-reading Romans 3:20-12 does not prove your point, as to do this would be to proof-text. We must look beyond your chosen text to the rest of the counsel of God.

    1) Man cannot keep the Law unto righteousness, this is truth. So far I think you are OK here. I could be incorrect. (Some non-cals don’t believe this, but believe they are able, thus non-cal theology lends itself logically to these errors).

    2) The Law is given as proof that man is incapable. This is stated within Scripture. Non-cals argue God never gives us commands we cannot keep. This is fallacious and erroneous, for, the Law was given as to make conscious of inability. Yet, non-cals have and hold an unbiblical and inflated view of man, thus they do argue this. As for you? I think you are staying OK here as well, believing man cannot keep the Law, but then you begin to drift.

    3) These things (our inability) teach us that we are utterly dependent upon God. Or at least they should. You begin to drift here even further, and this is where you get off base and away from scripture, from man being incapable and totally dependent upon God (specifically at this point incapable of keeping the Law) to man being capable in his own "freewill" to make a choice out of his situation to eternal life. One can easily see the problem this brings in representing God and man, and how such a teaching elevates mankind to an unbiblical state.

    Now, must we only reference Paul here? I get this from your "Where does Paul equate the two?" statement. Let's not make rules and impose them on others and stack the deck in our favor. This is not following good debate, but is actually a bit deceitful to be honest. This would be like asking another to show where "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth" is word for word from Psalm 23, and since they can't, making pretense to have "won."

    4) Abram teaches us this, that is, that in him all nations would be blessed, and this would be by pattern and by example, that is, that God chose Abram, so also has He chosen each of those who are his seed by faith. Read Genesis 12-15. We must remember that it was not Abram that had chosen God, but quite the contrary. This must take place, and it does today for his seed, 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Peter 2:10 &c.

    5) Abraham did not have this faith within himself inherently, faith came by his communication with God, that is, he received this faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, just as his seed does today. By time we get from Genesis 12, to Genesis 15 we see that Abram now is enabled to believe and trust in God. Keep in mind also, that he was chosen by God, by God's very Word, and only in this was he enabled to trust and follow; God made the first move, Abrams faith came from Gods Word alone. Romans 10:17 supports this.

    6) So we ask this, by way of application; What do you have that you did not receive? It is Gods purpose and election that stands, not mans choice. Paul understood this, Romans 9; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

    The basic argument of yours is this, that we are capable, in our own freewill to "redeem ourselves" by choosing, or able within himself to become righteous by faith. But man is not able to do this, this comes from God, not from man.

    You're also arguing this; Yes, man is incapable of keeping the Law, (to this I think you agree, although other non-cals who take your theology further rightly conclude, though in error, that they can) but then, as is due in your theology, you turn around and say that by freewill choice, man can believe himself into righteousness.

    Let's take this absurdity of belief and freewill a bit further, OK? Since man is fully capable of believing himself into righteousness by freewill choice, then man should also be capable of free willing himself into keeping the Law to righteousness. This is rightly turning the table back on your theology, such is where the error is in the first place.

    But none of this can happen, man is incapable in both arenas, both in keeping the Law, and in believing by faith, as we keep in mind the fact that faith does not save in the first place, it is grace. Romans 10:17 "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Thus, faith comes from a Source, and that Source is God Himself via His Word. It's then not inherent in man, it comes from God. Abram shows us this same thing, as a type of all genuine believers, that is, that God grants to them this faith.

    But this theology of yours fails to recognize that even faith itself comes from God, due to the fact you are claiming man is able. This is not true, it must be God that enables, as is the point of Scripture. In all of your arguments in this thread at hand this is the case, that it is man that is “able” even though you've alluded to believing somewhere along the line that faith does come from God (I believe, I could be wrong). This is you attempting to play both sides of the fence here; i.e. “man is able/ man isn’t able unless God.” Abram shows us this same thing, as a type of all genuine believers, that is, that God grants to them this faith.

    So to conclude, if Calvinists do indeed equate man’s inability in both, again, inability to keep the Law, and incapability of belief unto righteousness, they are correct to do so. Scripture supports this. This fact is "equated" throughout Scripture. It doesn't have to come word for word from Paul in a strict passage that you use alone.

    Furthermore the physical healing examples of Christ, healing the blind, the lame, raising the dead all show and are to show forth that man is totally incapable having a Spiritual application, and that, unless He speaks the Word to them, which enables, they could not be healed. Now, some would argue that they had faith inherent in them, but this is not true Scripturally, faith comes from hearing. To address your fondness of and for man and his ability, freewill, power, capabilities, freedom &c Jesus speaks to this, that we are not free, but are in bondage, and that the Son only sets us free. See John 8.

    The bottom line is God is Sovereign, man is unable to keep the Law and or believe unto righteousness apart from God. Man in said state is his Scriptural position, so, for Calvinist's to use this both concerning the Law and of faith, that we are unable in both is to use solid doctrine. In conclusion man is born incapable of being able to be made righteous by faith unless God does that work in them through His Word, therefore, you are incorrect in believing otherwise.


    - Peace
     
    #53 preacher4truth, Jan 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2012
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I agree with everything in your post (didn't copy it all because of length). Does that mean I'm a Calvinist?? :eek:
     
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    OH NO, I mean YES, you're now a Calvinist!!!!!!! Wait, we gotta test your wool first, to see if it's in your DNA! :thumbsup:

    Here it is, only 2 days into 2012 and you've already agreed with me! :laugh:
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    This is going to be a really strange year! [​IMG]
     
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I reject the Calvinist’ view of total depravity when it injects the idea that men and women have no will to exercise when it comes to obeying God or accepting salvation on one’s own volition. Regarding original sin, it is evident that corruption and death was introduced to the creature through Adam’s sin, but I reject the Calvinist’ idea that it was a direct transmission of that sin/actual sin to future generations accompanied with total depravity. Adam’s sin represented the ability of a choice not to follow God but it did not forgo the freedom to choose.

    “But why is there sin in the world? Because man was created in the image of God: Because he is not mere matter, a clod of earth, a lump of clay, without sense or understanding; but a spirit like his Creator, a being endued not only with sense and understanding, but also with a will exerting itself in various affections. To crown all the rest, he was endued with liberty; a power of directing his own affections and actions; a capacity of determining himself, or of choosing good or evil. Indeed, had not man been endued with this, all the rest would have been of no use: Had he not been a free as well as an intelligent being, his understanding would have been as incapable of holiness, or any kind of virtue, as a tree or a block of marble. And having this power, a power of choosing good or evil, he chose the latter: He chose evil. Thus “sin entered into the world,” and pain of every kind, preparatory to death.” – Sermon 57: On the Fall of Man

    The Calvinist proposition is that actual sin is imputed or transferred to each person of the Adamic race upon conception and to this they add in that all mankind is totally deprived. BUT, there is a grace that touches every man that comes into the world and prevents men from being totally deprived:

    (Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    It is not depravity in general that non-Calvinists are opposed to but to the concept of “total” depravity, which denies the free will of men to choose of their own volition. The Calvinist proposition of Total depravity denies the foundational Divine design of creatures in creation to have volition and such a concept ultimately eradicates the true and just Nature of God (Deut 32:4) and replaces His promise of light (John 1:9) to every man that comes into the world with a promise to only a specially pre-selected few. The promise of Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world therefore would become a promise with no meaning to those who would reject Christ and offers them an excuse not to even respond while denying the truth of His loving grace which would appear to them. The bottom line is scripture clearly refutes such a notion as total depravity from the get go:

    (Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     
    #57 Benjamin, Jan 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2012
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::wavey::thumbs:
    Just getting clearer and clearer understanding of the verses when you see them presented openly and clearly. keep coming to the light,lol ,I will buy two breakfasts...to Willis one.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No, not at all, Charles. No flesh will glory in His presence. To believe is completely and utterly out of the power of the flesh. It isn't simply a lack of information that keeps men in darkness, it's the lack of life.

    So what you're calling powerful isn't really powerful. It has no power over the hearer. Nothing has been imparted. No chains are broken. The power lies in man.

    So when you say:
    ...you're simply saying an uneducated man. Like the user left to himself without the software manual.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
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