Lets Obey Mary

Carson, Carson,

JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF showed me His UNENDING LOVE ALL BY HIMSELF! I NEED NTHER!

 

Hi Mike,

You wrote, "JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF showed me His UNENDING LOVE ALL BY HIMSELF!"

Yes, he did.. and his love needs a preacher.

I apologize for those Catholics who did not tell you how much Jesus loves you and how he demonstrated this throughout his entire life on earth, culminating in his great act of love upon Calvary.

 

It's still not Mary worship Bob. But, like Adventist scholars say, some of you guys read stuff into documents (like the bible) that just ain't there. For many it's a subconscious act. For you it's an intentional falsehood.

 

His love needs a preacher? Are you saying that Salvation only comes from hearing another fallible human preach the Word to me? The Holy Spirit is a LOT MORE POWERFUL A PREACHER THAN ANY mortal man will EVER BE Carson!

 

Hi Mike,

You asked, "Are you saying that Salvation only comes from hearing another fallible human preach the Word to me?"

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. I got it from the Bible where St. Paul wrote:

"But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)

 

Nobody here has raised her to a higher level than God did. The Holy Spirit wrote about her in the bible. What did he write about you?

Oh.

 

Nobody here has raised her to a higher level than God did. The Holy Spirit wrote about her in the bible. What did he write about you?

Oh. </font>[/QUOTE]Shame, Shame Harley!

 

And I respond thus: I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world (John 17:14)

 

Carson, the stuff you posted from the Pope was some of the best "eloquent waxing" that I've ever seen. To assert from Christ's first miracle in Cana that Mary is to be something of a co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix is surely one of the most ridiculous, hermeneutically impossible things I have ever read. But oh how Catholics are marvelous at this! You guys (even the best of you - ie. the Pope) can take a simple story and seek to cram a priori dogmas into its meaning - talk about your extra-biblical spiritualizing.

What do we really find in the story of Christ's first miracle at Cana? We find a need recognized (v.3), Mary's apparent expectation for Christ to provide more wine (or at least to let him know of the situation) (v.3), Christ's clear rebuke of His mother for her misunderstanding of His "ministerial timeline" (v.4), the submission of Mary to her Son's rebuke in the light of her own misunderstanding (v.5), and then Jesus meeting the recognized need by performing His first miracle (v.6ff).

Any of the following are exegetically incorrect and hermeneutically impossible assumptions about the meaning of the text:

1. That Mary didn't receive a rebuke from her Son for her lack of understanding (regardless of what your professor teaches in local basements). Clealy Jesus chided His mother for her lack of understanding.
2. That Mary somehow became co-Mediatrix for the human race because she recognized the human need.
3. That Mary somehow became co-Redemptrix because she actively participated in the meeting of that need, acting as the "mother of God."
4. That Christ performed His first miracle as an act of obedience to His mother, apart from His own good purpose.

All of the aforementioned assumptions are nothing more than a priori dogmas that the Pope and all staunch RC's are forced to defend because of the traditions of the church and because Vatican I declared that the Pope speaks infallably when he speaks from the chair of Peter. I'm thankful that those who are bound solely to the authority of Scripture are not bound to such erroneous assumptions.

 

Hi Todd,

You wrote, "We find ... Christ's clear rebuke of His mother for her misunderstanding of His "ministerial timeline""

Did you listen to the mp3 I provided a link to above?

 

Carson,

Just downloaded and listened to the talk. GREAT STUFF!

Anyone whose computer can handle it (most should; its just an mp3 sound file), should spend 17 minutes and listen to it.

 

Well said.

Even the RCC admits to the "Tomb of Mary".

And of course the myths about her being "Sinnless like Christ" and being "Co-redeemer with Christ" are simply that - RC myths.

The bottom line is that she did not pay for a single sin of hers - or of ours - and "Therefore" can not be "the redeemer" of anyone.

Christ alone - offers His blood alone to atone for the sins of the World. 1John 2:2

God did not say "He made THEM an atoning sacrifice" in 1John 2:2 - but He made CHRIST ALONE the atoning sacrifice.

Coredemptrix = all powerful = titles given Mary by the RCC - are leftovers from the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I assume that is where you deal exhaust your capacity to evaluate the "details" in that post given Harley.

Nice job. And unnusually thorough for your posts.

Thanks.

CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25


Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

For example see what “we do not find” among our Catholic sources…

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we do find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write…

All Powerful Mary –

Can any "thorough reader" really turn a blind eye to these RC statements?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob --

Let's look at some of these statements:

Why is this a problem? Don't you know that the scriptures promise to all believers a portion of the authority of God?

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you see that? We shall "rule and reign" with Him, which means that we shall bear His rule and authority. And it also means that there will be a hierarchial ladder of authority.

Now when we shall rule and reign, we most certainly will not do so by dint of our own fiat but will instead faithfully carry out the will and the orders of He Who rules all as our King.

Therefore, why is it a stretch to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary does not do the same thing now that we will do someday with Him and in Him? Why should She not be the Queen of Heaven, seeing that there must be a Queen for every King in a kingdom family?

Do we have direct access to our Lord? Certainly.

"Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest."

Blessed words from our Lord and a source of comfort for all who hear them. Yet do they deny that one might ask the intercession of another by which to move the heart of God? If not, then why do we ask others here to pray to God for those things which are near to our hearts? (Healing of loved ones, a new job, salvation for loved ones, etc.) Somehow we know that having others approach God for us in some mysterious way is beneficial to our meager prayers and desires.

Again, then, what problem with having the Blessed Virgin and the saints, who having put on Christ are love personified, pray for us to the Father?

Well, here's an interesting thought. If the Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed the spouse of God, then She is so closely united to Him so as to be one in union with Him. In essence then, Her will is nothing more than the express extension of the will of the Holy Spirit (Who, interestingly enough is called in theology, the "holy sophia" [feminine wisdom] of God). There is a mystical union between the Blessed Virgin and the Holy Spirit as Her spouse which we cannot completely understand here, yet which is pictured in the earthly marital covenant.

Just as an earthly father makes decisions which the mother carries out in his authority, so could we see the same principle working itself out through the relationship of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Her divine Spouse. Therefore, it is not without merit to say the above, given Her high and exalted position as the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

The thing you must remember is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the New Eve. You need to go back to the Garden and extrapolate what would have happened to the human race had Adam and Eve not fallen. Adam would be king and Eve would be queen. They would bear rule over all of God's creation, so that the will of the one would be the will of the other. They would act in complete harmony and unity, something we, cursed by sin and selfishness, do not understand. As such, Eve would bear rule equal to that of Adam, yet always in subjection to him as covenant head and final authority.

Jesus, the man is the Last Adam [1 Corin. 15:45]. He is the redemption of that lost covenantal headship which was destroyed by the Fall. But in order for the Garden Family to be completely redeemed, He must also have a human Eve, a redemption of the "mother of all living" who is His helpmeet and sharer in all that is His.

Only the Blessed Virgin qualifies for this, for Her creation was akin to that of the first Eve. both created without sin (one by creation, one by the redemptive work of the Immaculate Conception), both created from the rib of their covenantal head (Eve from Adam, the Blessed Virgin from the wound in Christ's side, which Blood made possible her being Immaculately concieved), both are "Mother of all Living", (Eve the mother of all who would ever live, the BVM the Mother of all who are truly alive in Christ as adopted children of God).

See if you can find more parallels.

Note that he says WITH her divine Son. This is a statement of covenantal unity between the covenant Head and His helpmeet. She never acts in contradiction to His will, as neither will we when we rule and reign subservient to His will.

Maybe Carson can answer this one. Carson, help....

WHATwas Liguori thinking when he wrote this? Does this mean what it certainly seems to mean by the most bare faced reading of the text, or am I missing something. Every time I read this quote, so often tossed in our faces by the Protestants, I just WINCE!!

This is very, very hard to defend, however, let me say that this is Liguori's opinion only and is not written anywhere I have seen in the Catechism of the Church as either infallible teaching or something I personally must subscribe to (and I most assuredly do not think that the Blessed Virgin gives God orders -- HORRORS!!!! )

Again, I do not understand what Liguori meant here, unless he was speaking of the rulership of the BVM which she has UNITED TO HIM. Do we mean to say that Mary, by and of herself is ominpotent? I don't think that is what he means here, but his explanation gives me the willies when read without thinking about it.

Is it possible that in the perfection of Heaven, She could have any other will but that of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Simply put -- NO!! Her will is again, that of Her divine Spouse, the Holy Spirit of God. She cannot act in rebellion against Him. But again, either Liguori did not explain this well, or this is a very selective quote trying to make Catholics look bad.

It all has to do with the bearing of the authority of God, which, as I showed earlier, we will all bear someday in some measure and amount.

Always keep in mind the covenant and the relationship that covenant establishes with God for each one of us.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

You argue that we are ALL on thrones - to make your point about "Mary Queen of the Entire Universe" - so "how many queens"? ALL of us? ALL the women? Just Mary?

If it is "ALL Those who are on thrones" then fine - do you pray to all dead women as you do to Mary -- as long as they were Christians? Do you call them all "Queen of the Universe"?

Or is Christ just married to his mother or is it God the Father in your view?

Why the RCC would have climbed so far out on this limb - I will never know. But it sure is "easy" to saw off.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I assume that is where you deal exhaust your capacity to evaluate the "details" in that post given Harley. </font>[/QUOTE]Well no, not actually. It marks the point where you start supplying conclusion unsupported by the details of the quotes you posts. Try surprising us sometime Bob, and actually posting a quote that comes right out and makes the same outrageous statement as you! Do me a favor, instead of posting all this catholic stuff, post something outlandish a Methodist wrote.

I praise my children, honor my wife, and think she's the most glorious thing ever!