Let's Talk About "Drawing"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Rather than derail a couple of other threads, I'd like to generate some discussion on two verses.

    John 12:32 "...and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

    John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day."

    Questions for discussion:
    1. Does "all men" mean all without exception? Or all kinds of men? Such as both Jews and Gentiles?
    2. In 6:44, no one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn; those whom the Father draws come to Jesus, who will raise them up. This is clearly a picture of salvation.
    3. If, then, all are drawn, and all who are drawn will come, and be raised up, how is this not universalism?
    4. In the gospels, the Pharisees were clearly not drawn. They hated Jesus and plotted his death. Explain, please.
    5. All have not heard the gospel, thus are not drawn. If one holds that "all" in 12:32 means "all without exception," why did Paul make three missionary journeys? If you hold that all have heard the gospel, please make your case.

    Release the hounds!
     
  2. JesusFan

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    Good posting!

    Think part of the answer would be found in Hebrews, where Jesus is called the High Priest who died for the sins, on behalf of the "many", NOT "all"...

    So the all has been qualified by God Himself in that passage, and would look like "all" would refer to all that would receive Jesus as their saviour and get saved!
     
  3. mandym

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    Many can also be used in the sense of all and vica versa
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    One who insists that "all" always means everyone without exception digs a hole for himself.

    Let's look:
    Luke 2:1 "...a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed."

    The Roman Empire, of course, did not include every one without exception--only those within the empire.

    Acts 2:47 "Praising God and having favor with ALL the people...."
    Obviously, not everybody everywhere.

    Context, context.
     
    #4 Tom Butler, Nov 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2011
  5. psalms109:31

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    When a man proclaims something it is limited, when God proclaims something it is limited to all He knows and He knows everyone right down to how many strands of hair on their head. When God said He loved the world and wants all men to be saved it is no limits but on all His word. It is what He wills will happen that those who trust in His Son and come to the knowledge of the truth will be saved. The knowledge of the truth is Jesus, the words of Jesus, and the words about Jesus. We know the only one's will come is those who listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus from His chosen witnesses of Jesus Christ.

    Now is the time where the dead will hear His voice and those who hear and believe will be saved.

    I do believe Spurgeon about all men has said it best.
     
    #5 psalms109:31, Nov 19, 2011
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  6. mandym

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    That is not evidenced of your claim. The Roman Empire ruled all that they knew of. In their mind it was the whole world.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day."
    John 12:32 "...and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

    First I am not aware of anyone who says everyone has heard the gospel. At least I hope no one says that all have heard.
    Second I think it is easy to take a text and not take into account other texts that are of equal value to show more light.

    In 6:44 the Father is doing the drawing, and in 12:32 He tells us what (Who) he is using to do the drawing. And in 6:37 the Father does the giving and all that are given will not be cast out.

    The question now becomes valid does all mean all?
    The problem here is free will to reject the draw.

    Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

    The issue is in this process is where does free will enter in and it is clear it does enter in at some point based on Matt..
     
    #7 freeatlast, Nov 19, 2011
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  8. convicted1

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    When I saw the title to this thread, I thought, "Oh goodie, art class!!" Shucks! :laugh:


    Drawing in no way guarantees salvation.

    Romans 10:20-21
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.



    Isaiah 5:24-25
    24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

    25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.



    Isaiah 9:12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


    Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the LORD shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.



    Isaiah 9:21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.




    Isaiah 10:4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.


    I used these verses to show that even when Israel knowingly rebelled against God, God allowed bad things to happen. Yet, in all of His anger, He was still reaching down His hand to them. It was that they chose to stay in their life of incessant rebellion, and eventually got cut off, and us, the Gentiles, grafted in.
     
  9. Tom Butler

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    I think you're making an unwarranted assumption of what was in their mind.

    At the time of Caesar Augustus, the Roman Empire generally covered those countries which encircled the Mediterranean Sea, plus half of Britain. It did not include most of the Middle East, Africa or Asia. It is a stretch to believe that Rome was not aware of those geographical areas.

    In the scriptures, "world" carries with it several definitions.

    Believers as distinct from unbelievers: John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but me it hates...."

    Gentiles as distinct from Jews: Revelation 11:12 "Now if the fall of them (Jews) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Jews) the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness?"

    The generality of known people: John 12:19 "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? Behold the whole world has gone after him (Jesus)."

    Back to your original point, even if you are correct, that the Roman world was all that Rome knew about, it still falls short of meaning every person without exception. "All" is still limited to what they supposedly knew.

    Again, context.
     
  10. mandym

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    Which would make their claim correct understanding the context.
     
  11. JesusFan

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    To put back into the origianl OP...

    We would have to first see just what the Bible writers meant by their use of the term "all", and that would have to be based upon contex and entire scriptures...

    Think hebrews clearly means "All" to be defined as regarding "some"
     
  12. Skandelon

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    I can't think of any reason a biblical author would use the term "all" when he really was thinking that God would only elect a select few from every nation. (And yes, it is "few" in relative terms.) It makes little sense for the biblical authors to use inclusive terms like "world" and "all man" and "whosoever" if their intent is to communicate that God has preselected a relatively few people to irresistible draw. It defies all reason or common sense.
     
  13. Winman

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    The scriptures DO NOT say all that are drawn will come. I challenge anyone here to show scripture that says that.

    The scriptures DO say all that come were drawn. This is scriptural and true.

    But these are not the same, all German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds.

    This is a FALSE argument.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    Reply to OP

    I have not read the intervening posts, so sorry if some or all of this is redundant.

    The Greek word translated draw means to compel using physical force such as draw a bucket of water out of a well, and when used metaphorically means to attract by persuasion when referring to people. Both of the referenced verses use the word metaphorically and therefore the meaning is to attract by persuasion.

    When the word translated "all" is used it always means "all the author intended. In order for the men to be drawn they must be aware of Jesus high and lifted up, so the idea is all men who hear and understand the gospel all drawn or attracted by God's kindnesses. The idea is not all kinds of men which is Calvinist code so some Jews and some Gentiles. Such a view is simply another rewrite of a verse to pour Calvinism into the text.

    Next, in #2 above we see the Calvinist rewrite of John 6:44, where the verse is artfully reworded as " those whom the Father draws come to Jesus." Not what it says, since this wording can be understood to mean all the Father draws come to Jesus, a wholesale rewrite of the verse espoused by Calvinism.
    What scripture says is everyone that comes was drawn, but it does not say everyone drawn comes.

    The #3 question is moot since all are not drawn, only those who behold Jesus high and lifted up, and two not everyone drawn or attracted by the gospel are salved, i.e. the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

    The answer to #4 is given in scripture, they did not learn from the Father, see John 6:45. Some might not have even understood the gospel, like those of the first soil of Matthew 13. Bottom line, you can be attracted by the gospel, but if you treasure worldly things like the honor of men or physical wealth (i.e. the rich young ruler) you will not accept or fully embrace the gospel.

    #5 is moot since only those who behold Jesus high and lifted up are drawn and not everyone drawn fully embraces the gospel, i.e the fourth soil of Matthew 13.
     
    #14 Van, Nov 21, 2011
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  15. Tom Butler

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    Let's member what Jesus was teaching in John 6.

    Who are those that will come to Jesus? Those whom the Father has given to the Son.

    Now, v 39
    Again, the ones who will come are those whom the Father has given to the Son. He will not be rejected, and will be raised up in the last day.

    Now, v 44
    Who are those who will come? The ones the Father has given to the Son. Who are they? The ones drawn by the Father.

    So, it seems pretty clear that those who will be raised up at the last day are those, and only those, who are given by the Father to the Son.
    Those given are those, and only those, drawn by the same Father
    And those who are drawn are those, and only those, who are given by the Father, and who will be raised up in the last day.

    To say it another way, those who are given are always drawn, and those who are drawn are always those who come, and those who come are raised up.

    Are there those who are given who will not be drawn?
    Are there those who are drawn who will not come to the Son
    Are there those who come to the Son who will be cast out?
    Are there those who who are given, drawn and who come who will not be raised up.

    No.
     
    #15 Tom Butler, Nov 21, 2011
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  16. Winman

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    Those that are given will come. Those that come were drawn.

    This does not say that all that are drawn will come. It doesn't say that, it says all that are GIVEN will come.

    Show even one verse that says all that are drawn will come, you can't do it, because it is not there.
    A fisherman hooks ten fish and attempts to draw them in. Two fish fight and jump off the hook. Only eight fish come into the boat. How many were drawn? TEN. How many come into the boat with the fisherman? EIGHT. Not all fish drawn by the fisherman come into the boat. But all eight that came into the boat were drawn.

    Get it?
     
  17. convicted1

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    So, the questions that need to be asked here are these: Do all dogs go to heaven? Or are the only ones going, are those who are effectually drawn by the Father? :laugh:
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Through the Rainbow Bridge:smilewinkgrin: Thats your answer:tongue3:
     
  19. convicted1

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    But, could only those given by the Father be the only ones to go through the rainbow bridge??




    :tongue3:<------------------------Right back at you, Brother!!! :laugh:
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    Got it, thanks. I disagree with the analogy, but I still like it.

    I think John 10 is useful here.

    Verse 16
    It's generally agreed that Jesus is referring to Gentiles--not yet saved--as his other sheep. He is referring to those Gentiles which will eventually be saved. Not all Gentiles will be saved, but his sheep will be. Those who don't (or won't) believe are not his sheep

    Who are these sheep who will never perish? (v 28).
    They are the ones whom the FATHER GAVE to the Son. (v. 29)

    In John 6, Jesus says they can't become his sheep unless they are drawn. Even though the Gentile sheep are not yet saved, in the mind of God it is as certain as if it was already done.

    So that's how I made the connection.
    Given=Drawn=Sheep.
    Not Sheep? Not given. Not drawn.
     
    #20 Tom Butler, Nov 21, 2011
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