Let's Talk Justification and Righteousness

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tom Butler, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    In another thread, I made the statement that none of us is righteous, quoting Romans 3, and that God sees us believing sinners as clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

    Heavenly Pilgrim disagreed. I'm assuming that he holds that in fact believers are made just by faith, not just judicially declared so by God.

    So, let's see where this discussion leads. Whose righteousness does God see? Ours, or that of Christ?

    Release the hounds!
     
  2. reformedbeliever

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    He only sees the righteousness of Christ. We all fall short of the glory of God (perfection). If not for Christ's imputed righteousness, and God's declaration of our being justified, we would be lost.
     
  3. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    There should be little debate over this issue. Luther referred to our righteousness as 'alien righteous' or inputed righteousness.
     
  4. James_Newman

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    oooh, my favorite subject has reared its head again.

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    If God only sees the righteousness of Christ, does that mean He can't see us when we sin?
     
  5. reformedbeliever

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    I was talking about Him seeing us in a judicial way. I think that is for the matter of salvation. I do think He sees us sin.... and we will pay for that in the here and now... but not eternally.
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    Hmm, if the righteousness God sees is our own righteousness, is it necessary for us to live lives free from unrighteous acts in order to maintain our salvation. What happens if the inevitable happens--we do an unrighteous act? Do we lose our salvation?

    So, if the righteousness God sees is our righteousness, is it meritorious? Is it the basis on which God admits us to heaven?

    Also, just how do we receive this righteousness? Does God give it to us? Do we receive it through sacraments, as Catholics teach.

    I think it's obvious through the questions that I hold to imputed righteousness. But the questions are sincere and not intended to trap anyone. That's the reason I opened the thread.
     
    #6 Tom Butler, Nov 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2006
  7. J. Jump

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    Tom there are two subjects that are being discussed here. One is spiritual salvation and one is after spiritual salvation. Most people when they speak of righteousness they only consider spiritual salvation, but righteousness also comes into play after spiritual salvation has occurred.

    Revelation tells us that we are to be clothed with white garments and then later it tells us that these garments are actually the righteous acts of the saints.

    Now the simple answer is that all righteousness comes from Christ through God's grace. However the righteousness given to us at the moment we believe is based on the finished works of Christ while on this earth physically. Then the righteousness that is given to us after we believe is based on "works" that we were created for (Ephesians 2:10). If those works are done then we will be righteous. If those works are not done then we won't be righteous, but rebellious.

    If those works are done, while they are credited to us, it is actually the Spirit that is doing them. So technically they aren't our works, but God credits our account as if we did them ourselves.

    Hope that makes sense :)
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    J. Jump,

    Quite helpful. Thanks. I'm mulling.
     
  9. Tom Butler

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    I'm requesting that the moderator move this to the "Other Denominations" Forum. By starting it here, I've locked out some non-Baptists whose contribution to this discussion would be valuable, in my opinion.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Tom if you would like some more detailed study just drop me a PM and I'll send you some great resource material.
     
  11. rsr

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    Moving to the Other Denominations forum at the author's request.
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    HP is a known Pelagius follower. He rejects verses state man was born with a sin nature. Bro Bob has not gone so far as to state this, but he too will argue this. Then there is one other poster that may, but I'm still not sure. Anyway..there are Pelagius believers on this board.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    We need the righteousness of Christ to be saved.

    But our own fruit - our own deeds are judged to see IF we have truly accepted the Gospel - have been born again - and so HAVE the righteousness of Christ according to Matt 7 and Romans 2. "By their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter but he who DOES the will of My Father".

    In Romans 6 Paul argues that those who are still enslaved "in reality" to sin are not Christ's at all - their master is Satan - and sin.

    In 1John 2 John argues that those who CLAIM to be of Christ and yet do not in reality WALK as Christ walked - are liars.

    In 1Cor 6 Paul writes "DO NOT BE DECEIEVED" and then he gives a list of sins and rebellion against God saying "Those who practice such things DO NOT inherit eternal life".

    In Gal 6 Paul argues "God is not mocked - whatever a man sows that shall he also reap"

    In Rev 12 we are told that the saints "KEEP the commandments of God".

    In James 2 we are told NOT to disregard those commandments because "he who breaks one is guilty of all" then James says "So live as those who ARE TO BE JUDGED by the Law".

    Christ said in John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" PRE-CROSS!!

    So the point is clear - our own righteousness is insufficient to match up to the perfect standard of the Law of God - YET it is our own "REAL LIFE" that is evaluated to SEE IF we have a "good tree bearing good fruit" or a "bad tree pretending to be good and still bringing forth bad fruit"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    True enough - but that begs the question.

    WHO is given that "pronouncement"? Is it those arbitrarily selected to be declared to have the righteousness of Christ or is it those who SHOW that they HAVE in fact been born again - "good tree bearing good fruit" -- New Creation with the Law of God written on the heart - according to the New Covenant.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: That is a excellent verse James.

    What I have witnessed so far concerning the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us so that when we sin God only sees Christ, is a bunch of man’s ideas. I have not witnessed any Scriptural evidence at all so far that would substantiate such a belief. Have I missed something?
     
  16. James_Newman

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    I think the idea that God only sees Christ when He looks at us is an oversimplified explanation of imputed righteousness. I certainly believe in imputed righteousness, but to say that God no longer sees our sins is misleading at best.
     
  17. webdog

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    Do they reject being born with a sin nature...or do they reject the doctrine of original sin. Big difference. Calvinism needs original sin to work, while I do not believe it to be true. Ezekiel and Romans make it clear that we are each held accountable for our own sin.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: It is much easier to just name call than it is to try to understand the distinction you make. Besides, what profit would such a fair distinction make, other than defusing their pet imagined Pelagian windmill?

    It is good to see that some on the list such as yourself are willing to exercise your mind with the utilization of sound reason, rather than to just retreat to the effortless regurgitation of the intellectual absurdities of Augustinian dogma. May your tribe increase!
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: What is strange is that I have yet to read one response so far by any that have suggested the notion that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us in such a way as to blindfold God as to any future sins of the believer. You don’t suppose that Scripture may be mute as to that point do you?
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    HP: What is it about this verse that could possibly prohibit it from shedding light as to the sins of the righteous man and whether or not God sees them, or simply Christ on the sinners behalf?
     

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